you say: "But HDV is not BluRay/HDDVD compatible!!!!" (i say so what!) at DVinfo.net

Shannon Rawls · March 25th, 2005, 09:36 AM

Someone asked on another board: "I have heard that the sony HDV camcorder is not compatible with Blu-Ray DVD but no one believes this is true."

then someone replied: "It's true according to Sony Japan."

I say.....

- I am sure I will be able to copy a full 1 hour MiniDV tape worth of HiDef in .m2t format as a data file to a BluRay or HD-DVD disc no problem, so I can easily archive footage....."COMPATIBLE".

- I am sure I will be able to effectively cut a HD video project with Vegas, and RENDER OUT a HiDef movie in an acceptable BluRay or HD-DVD codec to watch a movie in HiDef....."COMPATIBLE"

so what else do I need?

If you mean can't I simply burn the MPEG files coming directly from my Sony Z1 camera directly to a BluRay/HDDVD disc and then pop it in a BluRay/HDDVD player and watch it.....heck no "INCOMPATIBLE".....but SO WHAT! Since when could you EVER do that with any type of disc (CD, CDR, CDRW, DVD-R, DVD+R, etc...)????

The procedure will be the same as buring a DVD today. I don't need 1-to-1 compatibility with a BluRay/HDDVD burner and my Z1 HDV camera. I will simply edit the footage, render it out to whatever BluRay/HDDVD wants, author and burn. simple.

THIS IS WHY BUYING, SHOOTING, INVESTING in HIGH DEFINITION "today" (March 25th, 2005) is a SMART thing to do. Everything I shoot today will be HIGH DEFINITION tomorrow. I repeatedly get submissions to the festival of movies that were shot in 1999!!!! I know people who repeatedly covet projects that were shot in Super VHS today!!!

For those who adopt the "Why shoot HD today if I can't do anything with it today" type of thinking, and are still considering shooting their stuff in SD today (March 25th, 2005), are in my humble opinion.....ummmmmm.....nevermind.

Just go HIGH DEF...you can't lose no matter what! *smile*

- Shannon W. Rawls

Aaron Koolen · March 25th, 2005, 01:47 PM

If this incompatibility is true, then it still seems strange. Shooting in a distribution format, but being unable to distribute it until it's turned into another distribution format.

Especially when both formats re Sony - typical Sony - proprietary out the wazoo.

Aaron

Steven Gotz · March 25th, 2005, 03:36 PM

As I stated in that other thread, there is no compatibility issue for most people since they will be using an intermediate codec anyway. Who cares if it is not compatible with M2T?

Whatever we export out of our NLE will be compatible with the new format or the new format is useless. Face it, whatever format that the video needs to be in will be supported by the major NLEs or it will never take off.

George Ellis · March 25th, 2005, 03:41 PM

Dang, neither is film. I guess we all need to just stop working. ;)

Steve Mullen · March 25th, 2005, 05:16 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven Gotz : As I stated in that other thread, there is no compatibility issue for most people since they will be using an intermediate codec anyway. Who cares if it is not compatible with M2T?

Whatever we export out of our NLE will be compatible with the new format or the new format is useless. Face it, whatever format that the video needs to be in will be supported by the major NLEs or it will never take off. -->>>

You are missing the point. There may be no firewire HD input on BR recorders. For example, there are none on the current Panasonic.

There will be an ATSC tuner and an RF port for cable with a CableCard slot. You can record HDTV where everything has the necessary copy protect flags.

You don't get to record any HD source that does not have copy protect bits set -- even if you are copying your own project. How can a deck know if it is making a copy of a Hollywood picture you shot off a 1080p LCD display with your FX1? It can't -- so you can't copy to BR. No back-ups!

Just like HDMI requires logic in the display to permit you to see HD, if there is a FW port it will only allow DV25 in and Copyprotected MPEG-2 from a cable/DBS box. It will only output HD MPEG-2 to an HDTV that has copypotect logic inside.

The same will be true for WM9 with its DRM. AVC also has strong copy protection. It is illegal to even talk about making a HD copy of anything to travel via FW into a BR deck.

There is a loophole, however. If you buy a BR drive for your computer, Sony says it CAN record MPEG-2 to BR. No word on AVC or WM9.

So if you buy one BR recorder for you HDTV and one BR drive for your camcorder -- you should be fine.

But what about BR camcorders? They'll be limited to 1 hour (small discs) so they cannot copy movies by pointing a camera at a screen.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 25th, 2005, 05:32 PM

AVC will record to BD. It's part of the spec, part of the moving ahead plans, and H.264 is also BD compatible. Nero has long ago announced BD compatiblity with their Aetme AVC codec.

Don't confuse home playback/set tops with authoring tools, because they are different animals.

As far as not being able to plug an m2t stream in and play it, that was never the goal, I can't see any real reason it should be. Intel, Philips, and TI are just only now coming online with their decoder chips, you'll hear more about this in hardware at NAB, but they'll not hit the consumer market for at least another year. Samsung has got an open order with Philips for chips, if the analysts are telling the truth, that would be a beneficial thing for BD, if it could handle m2t playback/decode in the spec. But...the HDV cams are intended to become something else when the media is imported anyway, and Sony has suggested that all along.
I honestly fail to see much benefit in having BD support transport stream playback, but that's just my view.

Steven Gotz · March 25th, 2005, 06:02 PM

Steve,

You are correct. I missed the point. I just assumed a drive in a PC, not a set top box.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 25th, 2005, 06:14 PM

> If you mean can't I simply burn the MPEG
> files coming directly from my Sony Z1 camera
> directly to a BluRay/HDDVD disc and then pop
> it in a BluRay/HDDVD player and watch it...

Well in the beggining DVD players could hardly play all properly authered DVDs. Today they play much more than that, including MP3 audio CDs and almost any kind of MPEG1. So it's perfectly possible that HD-DVD players or Blu-Ray players will end up being able to play other kinds of MPEG-2, including HDV. As a friend uses to say to me: "it's just software".

March 25th, 2005, 09:36 AM	#1
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	you say: "But HDV is not BluRay/HDDVD compatible!!!!" (i say so what!) Someone asked on another board: "I have heard that the sony HDV camcorder is not compatible with Blu-Ray DVD but no one believes this is true." then someone replied: "It's true according to Sony Japan." I say..... - I am sure I will be able to copy a full 1 hour MiniDV tape worth of HiDef in .m2t format as a data file to a BluRay or HD-DVD disc no problem, so I can easily archive footage....."COMPATIBLE". - I am sure I will be able to effectively cut a HD video project with Vegas, and RENDER OUT a HiDef movie in an acceptable BluRay or HD-DVD codec to watch a movie in HiDef....."COMPATIBLE" so what else do I need? If you mean can't I simply burn the MPEG files coming directly from my Sony Z1 camera directly to a BluRay/HDDVD disc and then pop it in a BluRay/HDDVD player and watch it.....heck no "INCOMPATIBLE".....but SO WHAT! Since when could you EVER do that with any type of disc (CD, CDR, CDRW, DVD-R, DVD+R, etc...)???? The procedure will be the same as buring a DVD today. I don't need 1-to-1 compatibility with a BluRay/HDDVD burner and my Z1 HDV camera. I will simply edit the footage, render it out to whatever BluRay/HDDVD wants, author and burn. simple. THIS IS WHY BUYING, SHOOTING, INVESTING in HIGH DEFINITION "today" (March 25th, 2005) is a SMART thing to do. Everything I shoot today will be HIGH DEFINITION tomorrow. I repeatedly get submissions to the festival of movies that were shot in 1999!!!! I know people who repeatedly covet projects that were shot in Super VHS today!!! For those who adopt the "Why shoot HD today* if I can't do anything with it today"* type of thinking, and are still considering shooting their stuff in SD today (March 25th, 2005), are in my humble opinion.....ummmmmm.....nevermind. Just go HIGH DEF...you can't lose no matter what! smile - Shannon W. Rawls

March 25th, 2005, 01:47 PM	#2
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	If this incompatibility is true, then it still seems strange. Shooting in a distribution format, but being unable to distribute it until it's turned into another distribution format. Especially when both formats re Sony - typical Sony - proprietary out the wazoo. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

March 25th, 2005, 03:36 PM	#3
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	As I stated in that other thread, there is no compatibility issue for most people since they will be using an intermediate codec anyway. Who cares if it is not compatible with M2T? Whatever we export out of our NLE will be compatible with the new format or the new format is useless. Face it, whatever format that the video needs to be in will be supported by the major NLEs or it will never take off. __________________ Steven Gotz http://www.stevengotz.com

March 25th, 2005, 05:16 PM	#5
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Steven Gotz : As I stated in that other thread, there is no compatibility issue for most people since they will be using an intermediate codec anyway. Who cares if it is not compatible with M2T? Whatever we export out of our NLE will be compatible with the new format or the new format is useless. Face it, whatever format that the video needs to be in will be supported by the major NLEs or it will never take off. -->>> You are missing the point. There may be no firewire HD input on BR recorders. For example, there are none on the current Panasonic. There will be an ATSC tuner and an RF port for cable with a CableCard slot. You can record HDTV where everything has the necessary copy protect flags. You don't get to record any HD source that does not have copy protect bits set -- even if you are copying your own project. How can a deck know if it is making a copy of a Hollywood picture you shot off a 1080p LCD display with your FX1? It can't -- so you can't copy to BR. No back-ups! Just like HDMI requires logic in the display to permit you to see HD, if there is a FW port it will only allow DV25 in and Copyprotected MPEG-2 from a cable/DBS box. It will only output HD MPEG-2 to an HDTV that has copypotect logic inside. The same will be true for WM9 with its DRM. AVC also has strong copy protection. It is illegal to even talk about making a HD copy of anything to travel via FW into a BR deck. There is a loophole, however. If you buy a BR drive for your computer, Sony says it CAN record MPEG-2 to BR. No word on AVC or WM9. So if you buy one BR recorder for you HDTV and one BR drive for your camcorder -- you should be fine. But what about BR camcorders? They'll be limited to 1 hour (small discs) so they cannot copy movies by pointing a camera at a screen. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

March 25th, 2005, 05:32 PM	#6
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	AVC will record to BD. It's part of the spec, part of the moving ahead plans, and H.264 is also BD compatible. Nero has long ago announced BD compatiblity with their Aetme AVC codec. Don't confuse home playback/set tops with authoring tools, because they are different animals. As far as not being able to plug an m2t stream in and play it, that was never the goal, I can't see any real reason it should be. Intel, Philips, and TI are just only now coming online with their decoder chips, you'll hear more about this in hardware at NAB, but they'll not hit the consumer market for at least another year. Samsung has got an open order with Philips for chips, if the analysts are telling the truth, that would be a beneficial thing for BD, if it could handle m2t playback/decode in the spec. But...the HDV cams are intended to become something else when the media is imported anyway, and Sony has suggested that all along. I honestly fail to see much benefit in having BD support transport stream playback, but that's just my view. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

March 25th, 2005, 03:41 PM	#4
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	Dang, neither is film. I guess we all need to just stop working. ;)

March 25th, 2005, 06:02 PM	#7
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	Steve, You are correct. I missed the point. I just assumed a drive in a PC, not a set top box. __________________ Steven Gotz http://www.stevengotz.com

March 25th, 2005, 06:14 PM	#8
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> If you mean can't I simply burn the MPEG > files coming directly from my Sony Z1 camera > directly to a BluRay/HDDVD disc and then pop > it in a BluRay/HDDVD player and watch it... Well in the beggining DVD players could hardly play all properly authered DVDs. Today they play much more than that, including MP3 audio CDs and almost any kind of MPEG1. So it's perfectly possible that HD-DVD players or Blu-Ray players will end up being able to play other kinds of MPEG-2, including HDV. As a friend uses to say to me: "it's just software". __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.