Maybe some are being too hard on HDV?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 27th, 2005, 08:39 AM

You're right, Heath, i should have qualified that by saying that they won't be the cam sought after for the more general use. Obviously, George Lucas won't ever be using a Panasonic HDX and Steven Spielberg won't be using an HDV cam for their next epic films. But....as film makers, documentarians, television field production, ENG/EFP cams come down in price, the amount of content and sales of cameras used for creating that content go up. I do believe that in another 10-15 years the chasm will be so narrow (barring the economy becoming ridiculous) that it won't much matter whether you're spending 5K vs 50K on a cam. There will still be Vipercams of some sort, but will they cost 150K and require a huge support team? I doubt it.
But for me to broadly say that the days of those cams are over is incorrect, so I'll retract it or qualify it.

Bill Pryor · March 30th, 2005, 01:56 PM

I think that's a fair assessment. What HDV seems to be doing is pulling the low end a lot closer to the mid-range professional end, much as DV did. I would expect the Sony and upcoming JVC HDV cameras to take a big bite out of the 1/2" chip cameras and maybe even to eat in to the DSR500/570, and equivalent, market a bit. I'm not ready to dump the DSR500 for a 1/3" chip "handycam" type HDV camera...but if I were in the market for a 570 today, I would have some serious late night thinking sessions about it before I'd commit that money. HDV from the 1/3" chip camera isn't as good as DVCAM from a DSR570, but the difference in cost may make the quality not all that much of a difference--ie., if you can get perfectly good acceptable quality for most things for $5K, does it make sense to spend $25K for something a bit better? Some of us could do much of our day-to-day shooting with a Z1 and then rent the better camera when necessary and probably be money ahead. Of course, the issue of a fully professional 2/3" chip camera is still there and isn't going to change...but you know that if HDV flies, then it won't be long before we start seeing 2/3" chip HDV cameras. It happened pretty quickly with DV.

Steve Connor · March 31st, 2005, 02:23 PM

Let's see what Sony are planning for NAB, I think there is another surprise coming!

Heath McKnight · March 31st, 2005, 03:39 PM

In theory, HDV is the next step for the people using DV. Time will tell, of course.

heath

Aaron Koolen · March 31st, 2005, 06:16 PM

Not if this ends up being as good as people are hoping. :)

We'll have two HD formats, hopefully both in the same price range.

Aaron

Aaron Shaw · March 31st, 2005, 07:26 PM

Price is the only thing left to determine the HD scene :). If it really is priced to compete with the Z1 (as has been said by Jan) then I think we'll see HDV become a consumers format.

Simon Wyndham · April 9th, 2005, 04:00 AM

Once the playing field is even and every camera is high def, then there will be the same chasm between high end cameras and prosumer cameras as there is now.

Big professional broadcast lenses and primes will always be expensive for most mortals, and the physics of light means that those lenses will still have to be a certain size.

At the moment HDV may allow an indie to make a movie that can be projected on a big screen or get a decent film out. But while everyone is celebrating that we can now create high res images on a budget, you can bet that there are developments going on in the high end world which move the goalposts yet again! Everything is relative. Once people get used to HD it won't be so special anymore, and if the high end develops even high res and clearer pictures there will be the same relative difference between low end and high end again.

In other words I think the really high end equipment sector is the dogs tail, and we are the head trying to chase it.

Heath McKnight · April 9th, 2005, 07:09 AM

Everyone,

Nothing will really ever change in that regard: high-end and low-end cameras (and mid-range) will always exist, in whatever format is out there.

heath

Dominic Jones · April 11th, 2005, 12:51 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : Once the playing field is even and every camera is high def, then there will be the same chasm between high end cameras and prosumer cameras as there is now.

Big professional broadcast lenses and primes will always be expensive for most mortals, and the physics of light means that those lenses will still have to be a certain size.

At the moment HDV may allow an indie to make a movie that can be projected on a big screen or get a decent film out. But while everyone is celebrating that we can now create high res images on a budget, you can bet that there are developments going on in the high end world which move the goalposts yet again! Everything is relative. Once people get used to HD it won't be so special anymore, and if the high end develops even high res and clearer pictures there will be the same relative difference between low end and high end again.

In other words I think the really high end equipment sector is the dogs tail, and we are the head trying to chase it. -->>>

A spot-on assessment, Simon (and Heath), imo... The high end will not stand still, and even now there are much higher spec cameras than CineAltas and Varicams around, if you want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (which I'd love to!!).

But at least we might get to see the back of DV!! ;)

However, could it not be argued that the static factor is human perception (or at least effectively so in relative time terms - i.e. excluding evolution!), and so whilst better and better cameras can always be made, we are starting to reach the flat spot on the 80-20 rule curve of quality vs cost?

March 27th, 2005, 08:39 AM	#31
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	You're right, Heath, i should have qualified that by saying that they won't be the cam sought after for the more general use. Obviously, George Lucas won't ever be using a Panasonic HDX and Steven Spielberg won't be using an HDV cam for their next epic films. But....as film makers, documentarians, television field production, ENG/EFP cams come down in price, the amount of content and sales of cameras used for creating that content go up. I do believe that in another 10-15 years the chasm will be so narrow (barring the economy becoming ridiculous) that it won't much matter whether you're spending 5K vs 50K on a cam. There will still be Vipercams of some sort, but will they cost 150K and require a huge support team? I doubt it. But for me to broadly say that the days of those cams are over is incorrect, so I'll retract it or qualify it. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

March 31st, 2005, 03:39 PM	#34
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	In theory, HDV is the next step for the people using DV. Time will tell, of course. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

March 31st, 2005, 06:16 PM	#35
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Not if this ends up being as good as people are hoping. :) We'll have two HD formats, hopefully both in the same price range. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 9th, 2005, 07:09 AM	#38
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Everyone, Nothing will really ever change in that regard: high-end and low-end cameras (and mid-range) will always exist, in whatever format is out there. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

March 30th, 2005, 01:56 PM	#32
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I think that's a fair assessment. What HDV seems to be doing is pulling the low end a lot closer to the mid-range professional end, much as DV did. I would expect the Sony and upcoming JVC HDV cameras to take a big bite out of the 1/2" chip cameras and maybe even to eat in to the DSR500/570, and equivalent, market a bit. I'm not ready to dump the DSR500 for a 1/3" chip "handycam" type HDV camera...but if I were in the market for a 570 today, I would have some serious late night thinking sessions about it before I'd commit that money. HDV from the 1/3" chip camera isn't as good as DVCAM from a DSR570, but the difference in cost may make the quality not all that much of a difference--ie., if you can get perfectly good acceptable quality for most things for $5K, does it make sense to spend $25K for something a bit better? Some of us could do much of our day-to-day shooting with a Z1 and then rent the better camera when necessary and probably be money ahead. Of course, the issue of a fully professional 2/3" chip camera is still there and isn't going to change...but you know that if HDV flies, then it won't be long before we start seeing 2/3" chip HDV cameras. It happened pretty quickly with DV.

March 31st, 2005, 02:23 PM	#33
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	Let's see what Sony are planning for NAB, I think there is another surprise coming!

March 31st, 2005, 07:26 PM	#36
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Price is the only thing left to determine the HD scene :). If it really is priced to compete with the Z1 (as has been said by Jan) then I think we'll see HDV become a consumers format.

April 9th, 2005, 04:00 AM	#37
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Once the playing field is even and every camera is high def, then there will be the same chasm between high end cameras and prosumer cameras as there is now. Big professional broadcast lenses and primes will always be expensive for most mortals, and the physics of light means that those lenses will still have to be a certain size. At the moment HDV may allow an indie to make a movie that can be projected on a big screen or get a decent film out. But while everyone is celebrating that we can now create high res images on a budget, you can bet that there are developments going on in the high end world which move the goalposts yet again! Everything is relative. Once people get used to HD it won't be so special anymore, and if the high end develops even high res and clearer pictures there will be the same relative difference between low end and high end again. In other words I think the really high end equipment sector is the dogs tail, and we are the head trying to chase it.

April 11th, 2005, 12:51 PM	#39
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : Once the playing field is even and every camera is high def, then there will be the same chasm between high end cameras and prosumer cameras as there is now. Big professional broadcast lenses and primes will always be expensive for most mortals, and the physics of light means that those lenses will still have to be a certain size. At the moment HDV may allow an indie to make a movie that can be projected on a big screen or get a decent film out. But while everyone is celebrating that we can now create high res images on a budget, you can bet that there are developments going on in the high end world which move the goalposts yet again! Everything is relative. Once people get used to HD it won't be so special anymore, and if the high end develops even high res and clearer pictures there will be the same relative difference between low end and high end again. In other words I think the really high end equipment sector is the dogs tail, and we are the head trying to chase it. -->>> A spot-on assessment, Simon (and Heath), imo... The high end will not stand still, and even now there are much higher spec cameras than CineAltas and Varicams around, if you want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (which I'd love to!!). But at least we might get to see the back of DV!! ;) However, could it not be argued that the static factor is human perception (or at least effectively so in relative time terms - i.e. excluding evolution!), and so whilst better and better cameras can always be made, we are starting to reach the flat spot on the 80-20 rule curve of quality vs cost?