Maybe some are being too hard on HDV?

[Zack Birlew]

Hnnn, strong opinion their Eirik! ^_^

I agree, HD is the only way to go from this year on.

[Mark Sasahara]

Yecchh. I think that HDV is a bastard format. There isn't a good way to distibute yet, the compression sucks and I'm just tired of jumping from one format to the next. Since the inception of video there have been 75 different video formats. Here's 76.

I'm really tired of having to educate producers and directors about why they should not use HDV. They see HD and get all sweaty. It's not pretty.

I shoot a lot of video. I'll probably shot some HDV at some point, but I will not enjoy it. Unless I'm shooting something interesting.

Interestingly, there has been an upswing in Super16 film shooting for TV and feature films. HD video isn't slowing, but that's HD, not HDV.

I suppose at some point HDV will supplant MiniDV, or coexist. Who knows. I'm just not a fan. Deep down inside, I'll always be a film guy. Mmmmm film.

The great thing about film is it's future proof. When properly stored it will last for hundreds of years. If you need an HD master, you can transfer to HD. If you need some future video format twenty years from now, again, just do a transfer. It's cheaper.

NFL Films Inc. shoots literally miles of S16 film each year. They shoot only with film and archive it at their facility in NJ. There is always one camera running at high speed durng a game. Most video cameras cannot get smooth HS because it's only going 60 fields per and must interpolate. If these guys new of a better way, I think they'd do it.

Some cinematographers were commenting on how when they trasferred film to HD, they saw additional depth and detail in the new HD transfers that they never saw before.

Newer is not always better. Am I saying that everyone should start shooting film? No, but I'm sure Kodak and Fuji would be excited. I just don't think that HDV is a good idea.

I know I'm gonna get jumped.

[Mark Sasahara]

Oh yeah, now we're seeing the beginning of the end for video tape, with the new P2 and XDCAM formats.

I'm curious to see what happens. The networks and affiliates are slowly adopting these formats for ENG. I'm curious to see what happens.

[Steven Gotz]

Jumped? Perhaps.

You are missing the point though. The HDV output is easily distributed to the right customers. A simple $249 player does the trick nicely and if people are willing to pay extra for HDV instead of DV, they are certainly willing to pay a little more for a new player.

Wide distribution is a problem, but some customers are more than ready to have their wallet lightened by the first really good HDV shooter to come along. I just hope that the people offering HDV are good at their job so they don't spoil it for the rest of us.

And it flat out looks better than DV. (All of the other skilled positions being equal)

It will be a long time before tape goes away. The solid state storage is not really quite ready to take it's place. Eventually perhaps, but not this year or next.

Film is just too expensive for many of us. The quality of film over video is a completely separate topic and better left to others. I will stay out of it.

[Heath McKnight]

Mark,

I understand the "formats and cameras" changing fast--it gets annoying. But you've obviously never shot with HDV, so you're dismissing it before you try it? That's what happened to me 6 years ago when I bought an XL-1: people hated DV without trying it.

I'd recommend trying HDV, like the FX1 or Z1, before making judgments.

heath

[Mark Sasahara]

I'm not a huge fan of MiniDV either. Even though I own an XL2, it's not my principal camera.

The technology changes so quickly that, unless I can justify it by client demand, or I'm making boatloads of money and my accountant says I have to buy something, it's not really worth it for me to own anything else video.

I don't really want to shot HDV. Yes I am knocking it without trying it. At some point I'll check it out and find out more about it.

I've shot HD and film and much prefer those to the lower end formats. I'm not a luddite, I just haven't really seen any video that's truly pleasing to my eye. Some film ain't that hot either. If you've ever seen an 8x10 inch chrome (color transparency), or printed your own 16x20 color prints from 8x10 negs, you know what I'm talking about.

I'm as big a gadget freak as anyone, but I take a wait and see approach most of the time. Just because Sony, or someone says "JUMP" we don't always have to jump.

[Steve Crisdale]

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Sasahara :
Just because Sony, or someone says "JUMP" we don't always have to jump. -->>>

Strange way to interpret Sony's reaction to the 'natural' developments in video 'advancement' brought about by the growing market in 16:9 and HD FTA broadcasting.

To be honest, the FX-1/Z1 are Sony's reaction to the short-comings of JVC's first foray into low-cost HD (HDV) video equipment, and it's more accurate to say that Sony "JUMPED" to the calls from users of boards such as this, when they set about creating their low-cost HD (HDV) solution.

I'm sure JVC's soon to be released HDV cam with 24p is also a reaction to user's requests and the success of the FX-1/Z1, rather than corporate Nazi's determining the purchases of mindless consumers.....

[Mark Sasahara]

I know that I will never know it all, so on every job and everyday I learn something new. I have many resources for learning and one of them is this place.

Perhaps I'm a bit early in pronouncing the demise of tape.

I'm stating my own thoughts and opinions. This thread was seeking opinions, so I gave mine.

[Chris Hurd]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your reply there; I think it's very important not to knock any new format until you try it. It's a mistake to get hung up on the numbers and to make an assumption on this format's image quality sight unseen, just because of the compression.

I am one of those people that feel that the sooner tape is gone completely, the better off we are all around as content creators.

One thing though, I'm not at all sure what you mean by the statement "Just because Sony, or someone says "JUMP" we don't always have to jump."

We jump with our dollars -- as end users we jump by spending. And if we don't want to jump, we don't have to. There are a wide variety of other alternatives to HDV. Nobody has to buy into it. Sony isn't forcing anyone to buy anything, and they certainly aren't saying "jump." All they have done is respond to a market demand for a low-cost high definition format. In other words, the situation is really the opposite of what you're describing. The marketplace has told the manufacturers to jump -- and they're asking how high.

[Mark Sasahara]

Heath and all: My sincerest apology if I insulted anyone, I did not mean to diss anyone, you are good people and your knowledge is valuable. I am just expressing my dislike of the format. My apologies if I was copping a superior attitude.

Jack seemed to be asking for opinions, so I sounded off. Apparently I am the lone dissenter.

Isn't asking the question "are people being too hard on HDV"?, in the HDV forum a bit self serving? Preaching to the choir?

[Mark Sasahara]

Thanks Chris, you posted while I was writing my apology.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

<<<Isn't asking the question "are people being too hard on HDV"?, in the HDV forum a bit self serving? Preaching to the choir?>>>

Of course it is. But at the same time, there are a lot of folks who have made irrational decisions based on what they think they know. Back when we were renting fairly high end SP cams, I remember very distinctly telling a documentary film maker that "DV would never make waves in the professional video industry." He gently reminded me of that when I wrote my first book on DV. I saw the JVC camera nearly 2 years ago now, and shot it for the first time just a little over a year ago. I swore HDV would suck too. I've now seen images from JVC's first offering and second offering, and I own two Z1's. I've bought into the format because I was convinced to see the images myself, shot by myself, viewed on the correct monitor, and I was no longer a detractor, but rather an evangelist of the format. The days of the 100,000 digital acquisition format are just about over. This year, between Sony and Panasonic, you'll see serious challenges to their own very high end cameras. Are these cameras as robust? Not by a long shot.
But for television-only/DVD/BD delivery, or limited theatre distribution.....man o' man but I'd hate to be selling any cam over 50K right about now.

So, the discussion is healthy for a number of reasons, not the least of which is getting a few to take a second look at the format, which from your post, you might be considering.

[Heath McKnight]

The HD10 was okay, but the FX1's I've used are INCREDIBLE. I can't wait for a 24p version!

heath

[Mark Sasahara]

Thanks Douglas.

[Charles Papert]

<<<-- Originally posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle : <<< The days of the 100,000 digital acquisition format are just about over -->>>

Spot, considering that you generously admitted your earlier proclamations for or against various formats, wouldn't this fall into the "never say never" category also? Considering the progression of cameras that have superceded the Sony/Panasonic HD offerings, from the here now (Viper) to the almost-here-now (Dalsa, D20, Genesis, Kinetta), all of which are at least at the 6 figure mark or considerably more; isn't it probably safe to say that these systems will likely be supplanted in years to come, and that HD as we know it will continue to evolve as a format, both in the low end and the high end? The one thing that is going to be interesting is that as the resolution of a system grows, the more demand is placed on the optics, making the current DV/HDV camcorder price point a potentially tricky one to maintain down the road.