HDV with Film at DVinfo.net

Gabor Lacza · January 21st, 2005, 01:03 PM

Hello everybody,
I am planning to shoot a documentary at the summer with the Z1 and a 16 (S16)mm film camera.The documentary will be shoot 90% Z1 and 10% 16mm.The film will be telecined to 1920x1080/24p uncompressed and the HDV will be shoot at 1440x1080/50i.
I know that the 2 format will not intercut well and that is not my intentions.I want the 2 different look in the movie
What will be the best way to edit this movie on PC ? What resolution,frame rate,editing system ? Can Premire Pro handle this or may be Avid Pro HD?
Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Gabor

Dylan Pank · January 22nd, 2005, 01:30 PM

Gabor,

Are you thinking of editing at 24fps or 25fps?

One or the other you'll have to decide. It might be better to shoot the film at 25fps and keep consistent, seeing as the film will only be 10% of your material would be film. It would also be simpler dealing with everything at 25fps. If you want to edit at 24p you'll have to convert all of your Z1 footage.

What is your destination, Video/Broadcast or 35mm film release?

At the moment Avid cannot handle HDV, so you would have to convert your Z1 footage to something that Avid could handle. Premiere Pro can handle HDV with the cineform plug in. I don't know if it would be able to deal with uncompressed 1080.

Gabor Lacza · January 22nd, 2005, 02:20 PM

Thanks Dylan for your reply.
the destination is broadcast and dvd.No 35mm film.
I have to shoot the film at 24fps and I think I better convert it than to 25fps and to all the editing at 25p.The film camera will not shoot at 25 but 24,32,48 so 24fps will be the choice.

Gabor

Gabor Lacza · January 23rd, 2005, 10:44 PM

If I want to edit the 1080/50i HDV footage together with the 1080/24p 16mm film footage I need to convert them into the same resolution and codec,right ?
If I convert them all to 1080/25p or 1080/24p I will lose all the real time effects with Aspect HD since it doesnt support this ,right ???
So it is better to edit the 1080/50i HDV footage first and when finished with all the editing convert them to 1080/24p and edit the final cuts together with the 16mm which is already 1080/24p???
Any other ideas?

Dylan Pank · January 24th, 2005, 08:54 AM

Gabor, convert everything to 50i rather than 24p. If your footage is you won't loose anything in terms of quality going from Uncompressed 24p to AspectHD (other than what the codec loses)

Your output will be 50i so editing in 24p is no use.

Gabor Lacza · January 24th, 2005, 10:55 PM

Dylan,
so are you suggesting a workflow looks like this ?

Step 1 : Shoot 1080/50i HDV and telecine the 16mm film footage into uncompressed 1080/24p
Step 2 : Import 1080/50i HDV into Premiere as CFHD .avi
Step 3 : Convert 1080/24p 16mm film footage to 1080/25p and from there to 1080/50i CFHD .avi
Step 4 : Edit all HDV and 16mm film together as 1080/50i CFHD avi Real time in Premiere Pro
Step 5 : When editing is done export as 1080/50i avi file.
Step 6 : Use DVFilm Maker 2.1 to convert the 1080/50i file into 1080/24p for a Master.

Step 1&2 is pretty clear.At Step 3 what software would you use for this conversion? How do you convert 1920x1080 (16:9) into 1440x1080(16x9)??
Step 4&5 is pretty straightforward also. At Step 6 DVfilm Maker will take the avi file or needs some other codec ?
Gabor

Dylan Pank · January 27th, 2005, 09:39 AM

Gabor,
To be honest I don't know the best answers to most of these questions, you'd be best posing them in the Cineform forum. These are editing rather than aquisition questions.

What I will say is that unless you're going to sell your show in the North America/Japan, then you don't need to be at 24p at any stage. You should get to 25p/50i as fast as possible, probably at the Telecine stage. Outside Cinema, 24p is only really used as a shooting format because it is easy to convert to both 60i (2:3 pulldown) or 50hz (4% speed increase)

I don't know about DV filmmaker's software, but in most cases HD format conversion is done by very expensive very rare hardware equipment, and often the 60hz channels that show HD will not show any HD material that was not converted using such equipment. I can't believe a desktop app is going to match it, but I don't know for sure. But then, they (e.g. NHK) would probably just take the 50i tapes off you and do the conversion themselves and anyway, currently NHK and Discovery HD currently don't accept anything that is not +90% 35mm, HDcam or Varicam. Super16 and HDV are not considered good enough unless it's for short B camera inserts or otherwise unobtainable footage.

Having said that, outside Australia, does any PAL/50hz station actually have Broadcast/cable HD?

Gabor Lacza · January 28th, 2005, 11:09 PM

Is it possible to move this to the cineform section may be David can give some more info on this...Thank you Dylan for your input.
Thanks

Dylan Pank · January 30th, 2005, 07:54 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Pank : I don't know about DV filmmaker's software, -->>>

I realise I got some facts wrong in my last post here. First off I should give the software its proper title, which is DVfilm Maker.

Secondly, I referred to HD standards conversion, whereas DVfilm Maker is specifically for de-interlacing 50/60i and creating progressive 24p frames, so a comparison between DVfilm Maker and hardware designed for a different application wasn't right. Sorry to Marcus and the folks at DV film for that.

Unfortunely the editing period for this post has elapse or I'd correct the original post.

Filip Kovcin · February 11th, 2005, 05:30 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Gabor Lacza : Dylan,
so are you suggesting a workflow looks like this ?

Step 1 : Shoot 1080/50i HDV and telecine the 16mm film footage into uncompressed 1080/24p etc... -->>>

Gabor,

i think that solution should be as simple as possible!!!!

i do not understand why you cannot shoot with Z1 24fps?

on this camera there is "ntsc" mode -cineframe 24.

in this case both 16mm and HDV will stay in 1:1 ratio considering framerate.

but i do not know what will happened when you digitize that do NLE? Especially in PAL country - where as i understand you will edit in PAL mode...

never tryed that.

maybe you should try that.

but to be honest - in your place i will CHANGE 16mm camera, and find one which CAN shoot 25fps. then EVERYTHING is simple.

another thing - considering broadcast - edit offline on DV level. (downconverted fromHDV-->DV) why go expencive (HDV path) before on line?

untill summer HDV solution will grow and you will find proper solution for ON LINE.

filip

p.s.

Magyar es lengyel jo barat,
Karddal s pohar kozt egyarant :)))

Barry Green · February 11th, 2005, 10:00 PM

Because CineFrame 24 is lousy, Filip. Nobody would want to use it. CineFrame 25 provides a much better, more accurate rendition of motion, and the small 25->24 change in speed should prove well worth the effort rather than actually shooting in CF24.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 11th, 2005, 11:05 PM

Shoot in CF25 as Barry says, that's how both filmouts I'm aware of have been shot. However, I *think* I've stumbled on a workaround that makes the 24 look pretty good, albeit marginally clumsy. Once I see it projected from a Qualia, I'll know for sure, but that will have to wait for a few weeks.

Filip Kovcin · February 12th, 2005, 04:15 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Because CineFrame 24 is lousy, Filip. Nobody would want to use it. CineFrame 25 provides a much better, more accurate rendition of motion, and the small 25->24 change in speed should prove well worth the effort rather than actually shooting in CF24. -->>>

Barry,

i agree with you but i just tryed to find solution for 25:24 problem.
you are right - CF24 looks "staccato" compared to CF25. when broadcasted. didn't saw it on the big cinema screen maybe it looks better then.
but the moment i wrote i didn't think about that (i mean about how it looks on pal/ntsc monitor). you are perfectly right.

and therefore i tryed to find simplest solution for 25:24 problem, because i do not know how to work with two different frame rates CF25 and 16mm 24fps in ONE NLE project.
if goal is to KEEP original frame rates. or if this is a must for some reason...
have no idea.

filip

Barry Green · February 12th, 2005, 07:44 PM

You won't want to keep both frame rates. If you're making a program for PAL broadcast, or 50i HD broadcast, or DVD in a PAL country, shoot 50i and speed up the film by 4% so it runs at 25fps. Nobody on earth will be able to tell the difference.

Likewise, if your product is destined for NTSC or 60i broadcast/DVD, leave the film at 24fps and slow down the CF25 footage by 4%. CF25 at 96% speed is going to look a *lot* better than CF24 footage.

Filip Kovcin · February 13th, 2005, 03:00 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : You won't want to keep both frame rates. If you're making a program for PAL broadcast, or 50i HD broadcast, or DVD in a PAL country, shoot 50i and speed up the film by 4% so it runs at 25fps. Nobody on earth will be able to tell the difference. -->>>

i agree 1000%,

i think that i poorly understood the first part of gabor's (starter of this thread) intention.

i just thought that those 24fps is a MUST for him, even when imported to NLE system together with HDV material.

filip

January 21st, 2005, 01:03 PM	#1
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	HDV with Film Hello everybody, I am planning to shoot a documentary at the summer with the Z1 and a 16 (S16)mm film camera.The documentary will be shoot 90% Z1 and 10% 16mm.The film will be telecined to 1920x1080/24p uncompressed and the HDV will be shoot at 1440x1080/50i. I know that the 2 format will not intercut well and that is not my intentions.I want the 2 different look in the movie What will be the best way to edit this movie on PC ? What resolution,frame rate,editing system ? Can Premire Pro handle this or may be Avid Pro HD? Any ideas will be greatly appreciated. Thanks Gabor

February 11th, 2005, 05:30 PM	#10
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	<<<-- Originally posted by Gabor Lacza : Dylan, so are you suggesting a workflow looks like this ? Step 1 : Shoot 1080/50i HDV and telecine the 16mm film footage into uncompressed 1080/24p etc... -->>> Gabor, i think that solution should be as simple as possible!!!! i do not understand why you cannot shoot with Z1 24fps? on this camera there is "ntsc" mode -cineframe 24. in this case both 16mm and HDV will stay in 1:1 ratio considering framerate. but i do not know what will happened when you digitize that do NLE? Especially in PAL country - where as i understand you will edit in PAL mode... never tryed that. maybe you should try that. but to be honest - in your place i will CHANGE 16mm camera, and find one which CAN shoot 25fps. then EVERYTHING is simple. another thing - considering broadcast - edit offline on DV level. (downconverted fromHDV-->DV) why go expencive (HDV path) before on line? untill summer HDV solution will grow and you will find proper solution for ON LINE. filip p.s. Magyar es lengyel jo barat, Karddal s pohar kozt egyarant :))) __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 11th, 2005, 11:05 PM	#12
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Shoot in CF25 as Barry says, that's how both filmouts I'm aware of have been shot. However, I think I've stumbled on a workaround that makes the 24 look pretty good, albeit marginally clumsy. Once I see it projected from a Qualia, I'll know for sure, but that will have to wait for a few weeks. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

February 12th, 2005, 04:15 PM	#13
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Because CineFrame 24 is lousy, Filip. Nobody would want to use it. CineFrame 25 provides a much better, more accurate rendition of motion, and the small 25->24 change in speed should prove well worth the effort rather than actually shooting in CF24. -->>> Barry, i agree with you but i just tryed to find solution for 25:24 problem. you are right - CF24 looks "staccato" compared to CF25. when broadcasted. didn't saw it on the big cinema screen maybe it looks better then. but the moment i wrote i didn't think about that (i mean about how it looks on pal/ntsc monitor). you are perfectly right. and therefore i tryed to find simplest solution for 25:24 problem, because i do not know how to work with two different frame rates CF25 and 16mm 24fps in ONE NLE project. if goal is to KEEP original frame rates. or if this is a must for some reason... have no idea. filip __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 13th, 2005, 03:00 PM	#15
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : You won't want to keep both frame rates. If you're making a program for PAL broadcast, or 50i HD broadcast, or DVD in a PAL country, shoot 50i and speed up the film by 4% so it runs at 25fps. Nobody on earth will be able to tell the difference. -->>> i agree 1000%, i think that i poorly understood the first part of gabor's (starter of this thread) intention. i just thought that those 24fps is a MUST for him, even when imported to NLE system together with HDV material. filip __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

January 22nd, 2005, 01:30 PM	#2
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	Gabor, Are you thinking of editing at 24fps or 25fps? One or the other you'll have to decide. It might be better to shoot the film at 25fps and keep consistent, seeing as the film will only be 10% of your material would be film. It would also be simpler dealing with everything at 25fps. If you want to edit at 24p you'll have to convert all of your Z1 footage. What is your destination, Video/Broadcast or 35mm film release? At the moment Avid cannot handle HDV, so you would have to convert your Z1 footage to something that Avid could handle. Premiere Pro can handle HDV with the cineform plug in. I don't know if it would be able to deal with uncompressed 1080.

January 22nd, 2005, 02:20 PM	#3
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	Thanks Dylan for your reply. the destination is broadcast and dvd.No 35mm film. I have to shoot the film at 24fps and I think I better convert it than to 25fps and to all the editing at 25p.The film camera will not shoot at 25 but 24,32,48 so 24fps will be the choice. Gabor

January 23rd, 2005, 10:44 PM	#4
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	If I want to edit the 1080/50i HDV footage together with the 1080/24p 16mm film footage I need to convert them into the same resolution and codec,right ? If I convert them all to 1080/25p or 1080/24p I will lose all the real time effects with Aspect HD since it doesnt support this ,right ??? So it is better to edit the 1080/50i HDV footage first and when finished with all the editing convert them to 1080/24p and edit the final cuts together with the 16mm which is already 1080/24p??? Any other ideas?

January 24th, 2005, 08:54 AM	#5
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	Gabor, convert everything to 50i rather than 24p. If your footage is you won't loose anything in terms of quality going from Uncompressed 24p to AspectHD (other than what the codec loses) Your output will be 50i so editing in 24p is no use.

January 24th, 2005, 10:55 PM	#6
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	Dylan, so are you suggesting a workflow looks like this ? Step 1 : Shoot 1080/50i HDV and telecine the 16mm film footage into uncompressed 1080/24p Step 2 : Import 1080/50i HDV into Premiere as CFHD .avi Step 3 : Convert 1080/24p 16mm film footage to 1080/25p and from there to 1080/50i CFHD .avi Step 4 : Edit all HDV and 16mm film together as 1080/50i CFHD avi Real time in Premiere Pro Step 5 : When editing is done export as 1080/50i avi file. Step 6 : Use DVFilm Maker 2.1 to convert the 1080/50i file into 1080/24p for a Master. Step 1&2 is pretty clear.At Step 3 what software would you use for this conversion? How do you convert 1920x1080 (16:9) into 1440x1080(16x9)?? Step 4&5 is pretty straightforward also. At Step 6 DVfilm Maker will take the avi file or needs some other codec ? Gabor

January 27th, 2005, 09:39 AM	#7
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	Gabor, To be honest I don't know the best answers to most of these questions, you'd be best posing them in the Cineform forum. These are editing rather than aquisition questions. What I will say is that unless you're going to sell your show in the North America/Japan, then you don't need to be at 24p at any stage. You should get to 25p/50i as fast as possible, probably at the Telecine stage. Outside Cinema, 24p is only really used as a shooting format because it is easy to convert to both 60i (2:3 pulldown) or 50hz (4% speed increase) I don't know about DV filmmaker's software, but in most cases HD format conversion is done by very expensive very rare hardware equipment, and often the 60hz channels that show HD will not show any HD material that was not converted using such equipment. I can't believe a desktop app is going to match it, but I don't know for sure. But then, they (e.g. NHK) would probably just take the 50i tapes off you and do the conversion themselves and anyway, currently NHK and Discovery HD currently don't accept anything that is not +90% 35mm, HDcam or Varicam. Super16 and HDV are not considered good enough unless it's for short B camera inserts or otherwise unobtainable footage. Having said that, outside Australia, does any PAL/50hz station actually have Broadcast/cable HD?

January 28th, 2005, 11:09 PM	#8
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	Is it possible to move this to the cineform section may be David can give some more info on this...Thank you Dylan for your input. Thanks

January 30th, 2005, 07:54 AM	#9
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	<<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Pank : I don't know about DV filmmaker's software, -->>> I realise I got some facts wrong in my last post here. First off I should give the software its proper title, which is DVfilm Maker. Secondly, I referred to HD standards conversion, whereas DVfilm Maker is specifically for de-interlacing 50/60i and creating progressive 24p frames, so a comparison between DVfilm Maker and hardware designed for a different application wasn't right. Sorry to Marcus and the folks at DV film for that. Unfortunely the editing period for this post has elapse or I'd correct the original post.

February 11th, 2005, 10:00 PM	#11
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Because CineFrame 24 is lousy, Filip. Nobody would want to use it. CineFrame 25 provides a much better, more accurate rendition of motion, and the small 25->24 change in speed should prove well worth the effort rather than actually shooting in CF24.

February 12th, 2005, 07:44 PM	#14
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	You won't want to keep both frame rates. If you're making a program for PAL broadcast, or 50i HD broadcast, or DVD in a PAL country, shoot 50i and speed up the film by 4% so it runs at 25fps. Nobody on earth will be able to tell the difference. Likewise, if your product is destined for NTSC or 60i broadcast/DVD, leave the film at 24fps and slow down the CF25 footage by 4%. CF25 at 96% speed is going to look a lot better than CF24 footage.