HDV with Film

[Eric Bilodeau]

CF24 looks lousy on the LCD and EVF but looks like any other 24p when seen on a monitor, it looks quite fine, really. I think the problem might be coming from the downconversion to the LCD display because the downconversion to a CRT monitor makes it look pretty much like the 24p of the DVX100a I use frequently and a HD television makes it look very nice. I should post some examples of CF24 motion and it is not bad at all. Of course, 24p is not 60i, you have to be cautious when panning or travelling but it is the same in film. I am quite pleased with the CF24 results so far. I think too many people took for granted that the jittery effect of the LCD and EVF where the exact look of CF24. Also, a pulldown is not at a compatible frame rate as the display, a 24p would look much less jittery on a 48i display (witch obviously does not exist), a 25p looks better because you always have a 2field-1frame ratio. Don't forget that, once converted to film, 24p looks less jittery.

[Shannon Rawls]

<<<-- Originally posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle :
However, I *think* I've stumbled on a workaround that makes the 24 look pretty good -->>>

DSE,

After running some tests last night with CF24 footage. I made it look Mighty good by doing this in Vegas:

1. I started with Downconverted CF24 footage.
2. In vegas, I begin with a regular NTSC DV Widescreen (720x480, 29.970 fps) project, but I change the field order to 'None (progressive scan)' because that's how the CF24 footage comes in downconverted from the camera. I also change the 'deinterlace method' to 'interpolate fields' and change the 'full resolution rendering quality' to 'best'. Hit 'OK'.
3. footage looks ugly and plays choppy.
4. to fix that, I right click the video clip that's on the timeline, and choose 'properties'. On the 'video event' tab I 'disable resample' and (here's the special magic), on the 'media' tab i manually change the clips field order to 'lower field first', even though it was captured natively as progressive. Hit 'OK'.
5. After doing this, all interlacing is gone, and the clip is not so ugly anymore, and studdering is almost gone.
6. Cut your footage as normal. Make sure your video preview monitor is blown up full size, or you will see some stuff that really isn't there if it's a little miniature screen. I mean, it's ok to keep it mini, but don't look at that and think that's the final output, cause it's not. to see it correctly, you must blow up to full size.
7. Now, you will have noticed while cutting your footage that every 4th & 5th frame are the exact same. THAT'S OK, all you need to do now is export to 24p adding 2-3-3-2 pulldown. (not 2-3) to remove that judder frame, and set the correct 24p cadence.
6. So simply 'Render As' either a new DV .avi file choosing "NTSC DV Widescreen 24p (2-3-3-2)" or a "DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream" to make yourself a 24p DVD, (be sure to hit 'custom' button and include audio stream too).

CF24 DV is doable and becomes true 24p, and looks darn sexy too. I don't know if anyone has tried this, but on my footage it looks gorgeous, and is 24 frames per second progressive footage, all day long.

After you're done, take your clips and compare it to your bestfriends XL2/DVX and see who comes out smiling the hardest. (ever slam dunked on the court in someones face??? yea...its like that!)

DSE....tell me what you think.
Everybody Else....give it a shot and tell me what you think.

This method may have already been discovered, but I never found anybody who said anything, so I am saying it now. If I made an amazing discovery (which Im sure i didn't) then tell Sony I'll take a refurbished FX1 as a 'thank you'. LOLOL

Just Kidding.....

.....unless you gon' do it. *smile*

- Shannon W. Rawls

[Steven White]

Uh... I just read through Shannon's steps up there, and I can't say at this point I have a very good handle on what exactly he acheived.

I'm curious if anyone can piece through it, and tell me if it's anywhere equivalent in workflow to simply removing the 2:3 pulldown, editing native 24p (23.976), and rendering the final video to either a 24p format or applying a 2:3 pull-down and exporting as 2:3 NTSC video.

-Steve

[Shannon Rawls]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven White :
tell me if it's anywhere equivalent in workflow to simply removing the 2:3 pulldown, editing native 24p (23.976), and rendering the final video to either a 24p format or applying a 2:3 pull-down and exporting as 2:3 NTSC video.

-Steve -->>>

Steve,

tried that. footage was ugly as all hell.

Instead, like any project......you have to correctly setup the project first, making the changes i noted (you can save this for future), then setup timeline clip as noted, to fix the ugliness....then edit.

COmpare that to simply removing the 2:3 is a world of difference in the final file.

Ofcourse, it was late and I was sleepy. *smile*

- Shannon W. Rawls

[Steven White]

Well, the thing is this... I shot in Cineframe24, because I needed progressive frames to do effects work on frame-by-frame. Now I have a 24p master of my film. So far, no one has complained about the motion signiture.

So what I'm asking, is how do you take the 24 fps file and bring it to something watchable? My guess is that Cineframe24 will look okay, if you get the pulldown such that the fields line up properly in the 2:3 scheme. If you mess this up, you could end up with a frame originally set on 2 fields running for 3, making for a super-crummy studder.

-Steve

[Eric Bilodeau]

Why bother capturing in HD for a SD output? Use the internal downconversion of the camera, plug it to a capture card or a camera that can record from an analog signal and that should do the trick. It sends a 2:3 pulldown downconverted signal from CF24 and it looks very good.

[Shannon Rawls]

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : Why bother capturing in HD for a SD output? Use the internal downconversion of the camera, plug it to a capture card or a camera that can record from an analog signal and that should do the trick. It sends a 2:3 pulldown downconverted signal from CF24 and it looks very good. -->>>

EB (can i call you that? *smile*), I did capture to computer in SD. Granted I originally shot the footage in HDV, but I downconverted to SD in the camera for capture to the computer. It did send the 2:3 signal...however, without the tweaks, it doesn't look good all by itself.

unless your taking to someone else??

- Shannon W. Rawls

[Steven White]

>>Why bother capturing in HD for a SD output<<

Hm. If he was talking to me...

'Cause I'm not going to output to SD, and FX work is a lot easier on the extra pixels in the progressive HD images.

-Steve

[Jesse Stipek]

This is a really random question, but I'll shoot anyways,

Does the FX1 come with both CF24 and CF25 movie modes? I'm just curious because I get my FX1 model later this afternoon.

Jesse

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I think not, but I am not sure.
It's the Z1 who does this because it shoots NTSC and PAL, so you get both functions.
I could be wrong though.

[Jesse Stipek]

Hmm, I think you might be right because on the majority of sites that include the specs of the FX1 it only mentions movie mode CF24.... ugh.

[Barry Green]

The FX1 in 60i territory includes CF24 and CF30 (and not CF25).

The FX1 in 50i territory includes CF25 (and not CF24 or CF30).

The Z1 includes both, because it is both 50i and 60i.

[Jesse Stipek]

What do you mean by the FX1 only has 50i in certain territories, I get my unit in today (finally) and I just want to know if mine will have 50i because I really want to use CF25.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

If you live in a PAL-land, it's 50i.
If you live in America (NTSC), it's 60i.

[Jesse Stipek]

Ugh.. that means CF24 for me then. O'well, I guess I can make it work.