SONY HDR-FX1 vs JVC JYHD10U Shoot Out at DVinfo.net

Bill Piedra · December 10th, 2004, 03:15 PM

Hello again all.

I have SOME, but not all of the comparison footage that I made using both the Sony FX1 and JVC HD10 at the same time. Much of it was lit with softlights, practicals, and a little daylight.

There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between the two cameras. I only wish I made a video of me making the comparison video.

Anyway, I should have the footage available on DVD this weekend. I would need to charge a fee for the DVD itself, maybe a DVD Box if you want one, postage etc. I'm not trying to MAKE money by doing this, I just can't afford to LOSE any money.

There is 30 minutes of footage under a variety of circumstances which I will list later.

My question is, what would be a fair fee to ask for for making and shipping this DVD.

ALSO: Can any HOST the comparison footage? It's several gigabytes, but I'm sure I can trim it down.

Davi Dortas · December 10th, 2004, 08:41 PM

Every body know JVC HD sucks. Why need to make a compares DVD of 1 CCD vs 3 CCD footage? If JVC HD not a big seller, people need not to compare it with the Sony, right?

You DVD will not sell.

Rhett Allen · December 10th, 2004, 09:07 PM

Why don't you just post a few relative "stills" to the web showing the most obvious or important variables. I don't need to look at 30 minutes of crap to see if it stinks.
Also, if you put it on DVD, we would be looking at MPEG-2, not HDV, unless you made it a Data DVD, in which case, what are we supposed to do with it? Most people can't even edit it yet. Just a thought.

I am actually quite interested in the Professional model when it comes out but if I have to lose low light performance (3 lux vs 1 lux of my PD170) I think I'll just wait until it catches up to the rest of the market. Maybe the second revision or so.

Bill Piedra · December 11th, 2004, 05:39 PM

I can certainly post some stills. Just thought people would be interested in seeing the footage - I'm not trying to SELL anything. Just cover the costs of burning a dvd and mailing it.

But your right, who needs to look at 1/2 hour of crap.

Ken Hodson · December 12th, 2004, 11:43 PM

I personally love my HD10 Dovi. And untill another progressive HDV cam comes out I don't think I will be too envious. The HD10 is an enigma of sorts and maybe not favorable in a direct apples to apples with the FX1.
For one, ALL footage we produce with the cam goes through post. We never shoot to have it best we can get visually straight from the cam. We shoot with a set post routine in mind. Our footage often looks very dark and unimpressive befor processing. I am more than confident that the HD10 can hold up to the FX1 especially when the progressive look is appreciated, but straight head to head would be suicide unless the shooter truely knew how to get the most from the HD10.
The FX1 is a lot more freindly to amatures and will give them a much nicer shot straight out of the box. The HD10 REQUIRES expertise in lighting and filters, and post or your just not going to get good results.

"Why don't you just post a few relative "stills" to the web showing the most obvious or important variables. I don't need to look at 30 minutes of crap to see if it stinks."

Your going to grade a video camera based on stills? Are you kidding? The most important aspect of video is the VIDEO. Do you like the look of interlaced or progressive video? How does each cam handle motion? How do the various shutter speeds give motion blur? Your going to get this from a still shot? I don't think so.

Murad Toor · December 13th, 2004, 02:10 AM

I think one could just offer maybe 10 or 15MB *.ts or *.m2t files from each camera, for playback in VLC. As Ken mentioned though, that wouldn't account for the post work needed to make the HD10 footage shine.

I agree with Ken. If you don't know what you're doing with the HD10 it will show. That sort of ruins the "control" aspect of the shoot out / experiment / demonstration. The conductor of the shoot-out should have many hours of experience with the HD10. Otherwise it's like someone who's never driven stick comparing a manual-transmission car to one with an automatic.

Chris Hurd · December 13th, 2004, 10:30 AM

Also, everybody does *not* know the JVC HD "sucks," especially those shooters who understand how to use it and consistently get great images out of it all the time.

For Bill Piedra, I could host a couple of short clips here. Not several gigabytes, but perhaps a couple hundred megabytes. Choose your best clips and shoot me an email.

Davi Dortas · December 13th, 2004, 10:36 AM

I not have first hand experience with HD10, but I saw images from IBC Amsterdam, in broad daylight, the camcorder has very bad color rendition. Almost like no color, and detail of grass, etc, very wishy-washy. I was put off immediately.

And this handled by *so-called* experienced peoples. But I also reads somewhere about someone shooting lower exposure to compensate for non-existant exposure lattitude and compensating for it in post. I have to laugh when I read that statement.

Chris Hurd · December 13th, 2004, 11:11 AM

Likewise, I get a laugh out of people who make sweeping statements about equipment they've had no direct experience with. As for myself, I enjoyed a personal tour of the HD10U's capabilities -- including its remarkable color accuracy -- from Steve Mullen, one of the most proficient HDV users in the U.S. His statement to me was that if he could get such good looking video out of this camcorder, then anybody could. While I regret that you have not seen impressive results with the HD10U, rest assured that I have, and many other people have also.

And as a freindly reminder, making remarks such as "everbody knows XYZ camera sucks" will earn you a fast ticket out of here. Please realize that we don't tolerate that sort of nonsense here and DV Info Net and please consider carefully your choice of words in the future. This is not your typical internet message board. Thanks in advance,

Bill Piedra · December 13th, 2004, 11:55 AM

Please don't get me wrong, I was able to produce REMARKABLE images from the HD10, but it took some work. Lighting was critical, there seem to be more chroma noise than I would consider acceptable, and though the color was good, I think you will see that the SONY color seems to be much more brilliant.

One of the things that ALWAYS impressed me by HDTV was COLOR. I'm finding I can produce images that are much closer to that which is being broadcast today with the Sony than I can with the JVC.

And I have only had the Sony camera for a couple of weeks.

Davi Dortas · December 13th, 2004, 12:25 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd :

And as a freindly reminder, making remarks such as "everbody knows XYZ camera sucks" will earn you a fast ticket out of here. -->>>

My apologies. You see how much ignorance I have. Not everyone live and breaths DV and is knowledgeable to the bone of these matters.

Davi Dortas · December 13th, 2004, 12:31 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : from Steve Mullen, one of the most proficient HDV users-->>>

Not to be trite but let me ask you this simple question. How MANY people are of of Steve Mullen-calibre when it comes to his breadth of technical knowledge?

I answer for you: very few. So you need to be a Mullen to enjoy using this camera?

Chris Hurd · December 13th, 2004, 05:10 PM

Davi:

<< Not to be trite but let me ask you this simple question. How MANY people are of of Steve Mullen-calibre when it comes to his breadth of technical knowledge? >>

I admit, not that many. But Steve would say (actually he has said, to me) that since he could get a beautiful image out of the JVC HD10, then so could everyone else. And doing so would not require his breadth of technical knowledge.

<< So you need to be a Mullen to enjoy using this camera? >>

He would be the first to tell you that no, you do not have to be him to enjoy using the HD10U.

Hayden Rivers · December 13th, 2004, 05:43 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Piedra : Hello again all.
ALSO: Can any HOST the comparison footage? It's several gigabytes, but I'm sure I can trim it down. -->>>

I've emailed Chris, but I think that in this new world of super hi-res video that's several gigabytes, or even in the old world where people want to share 50mb-700mb, we need to start seriously considering Bittorrent. I'm sure people around here have used bittorrent and it's perfect for this type of data movement. There's dozens of people who want to download your video, it only makes sense that they help to distribute the video to other people using their bandwidth. That way even someone without a webpage or any type of webhosting can share his clips with the forum without having to ask for someone who can host the footage.

Bill Piedra · December 13th, 2004, 06:04 PM

I agree 100% - BITTORRENT is the way to go for the distribution of large files.

December 10th, 2004, 03:15 PM	#1
Bill Piedra Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Manchester CT USA Posts: 109	SONY HDR-FX1 vs JVC JYHD10U Shoot Out Hello again all. I have SOME, but not all of the comparison footage that I made using both the Sony FX1 and JVC HD10 at the same time. Much of it was lit with softlights, practicals, and a little daylight. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between the two cameras. I only wish I made a video of me making the comparison video. Anyway, I should have the footage available on DVD this weekend. I would need to charge a fee for the DVD itself, maybe a DVD Box if you want one, postage etc. I'm not trying to MAKE money by doing this, I just can't afford to LOSE any money. There is 30 minutes of footage under a variety of circumstances which I will list later. My question is, what would be a fair fee to ask for for making and shipping this DVD. ALSO: Can any HOST the comparison footage? It's several gigabytes, but I'm sure I can trim it down.

December 12th, 2004, 11:43 PM	#5
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I personally love my HD10 Dovi. And untill another progressive HDV cam comes out I don't think I will be too envious. The HD10 is an enigma of sorts and maybe not favorable in a direct apples to apples with the FX1. For one, ALL footage we produce with the cam goes through post. We never shoot to have it best we can get visually straight from the cam. We shoot with a set post routine in mind. Our footage often looks very dark and unimpressive befor processing. I am more than confident that the HD10 can hold up to the FX1 especially when the progressive look is appreciated, but straight head to head would be suicide unless the shooter truely knew how to get the most from the HD10. The FX1 is a lot more freindly to amatures and will give them a much nicer shot straight out of the box. The HD10 REQUIRES expertise in lighting and filters, and post or your just not going to get good results. "Why don't you just post a few relative "stills" to the web showing the most obvious or important variables. I don't need to look at 30 minutes of crap to see if it stinks." Your going to grade a video camera based on stills? Are you kidding? The most important aspect of video is the VIDEO. Do you like the look of interlaced or progressive video? How does each cam handle motion? How do the various shutter speeds give motion blur? Your going to get this from a still shot? I don't think so. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 13th, 2004, 10:30 AM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Also, everybody does not know the JVC HD "sucks," especially those shooters who understand how to use it and consistently get great images out of it all the time. For Bill Piedra, I could host a couple of short clips here. Not several gigabytes, but perhaps a couple hundred megabytes. Choose your best clips and shoot me an email. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 13th, 2004, 11:11 AM	#9
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Likewise, I get a laugh out of people who make sweeping statements about equipment they've had no direct experience with. As for myself, I enjoyed a personal tour of the HD10U's capabilities -- including its remarkable color accuracy -- from Steve Mullen, one of the most proficient HDV users in the U.S. His statement to me was that if he could get such good looking video out of this camcorder, then anybody could. While I regret that you have not seen impressive results with the HD10U, rest assured that I have, and many other people have also. And as a freindly reminder, making remarks such as "everbody knows XYZ camera sucks" will earn you a fast ticket out of here. Please realize that we don't tolerate that sort of nonsense here and DV Info Net and please consider carefully your choice of words in the future. This is not your typical internet message board. Thanks in advance, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 13th, 2004, 05:10 PM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Davi: << Not to be trite but let me ask you this simple question. How MANY people are of of Steve Mullen-calibre when it comes to his breadth of technical knowledge? >> I admit, not that many. But Steve would say (actually he has said, to me) that since he could get a beautiful image out of the JVC HD10, then so could everyone else. And doing so would not require his breadth of technical knowledge. << So you need to be a Mullen to enjoy using this camera? >> He would be the first to tell you that no, you do not have to be him to enjoy using the HD10U. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 10th, 2004, 08:41 PM	#2
Davi Dortas Membership Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 78	Every body know JVC HD sucks. Why need to make a compares DVD of 1 CCD vs 3 CCD footage? If JVC HD not a big seller, people need not to compare it with the Sony, right? You DVD will not sell.

December 10th, 2004, 09:07 PM	#3
Rhett Allen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 607	Why don't you just post a few relative "stills" to the web showing the most obvious or important variables. I don't need to look at 30 minutes of crap to see if it stinks. Also, if you put it on DVD, we would be looking at MPEG-2, not HDV, unless you made it a Data DVD, in which case, what are we supposed to do with it? Most people can't even edit it yet. Just a thought. I am actually quite interested in the Professional model when it comes out but if I have to lose low light performance (3 lux vs 1 lux of my PD170) I think I'll just wait until it catches up to the rest of the market. Maybe the second revision or so.

December 11th, 2004, 05:39 PM	#4
Bill Piedra Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Manchester CT USA Posts: 109	I can certainly post some stills. Just thought people would be interested in seeing the footage - I'm not trying to SELL anything. Just cover the costs of burning a dvd and mailing it. But your right, who needs to look at 1/2 hour of crap.

December 13th, 2004, 02:10 AM	#6
Murad Toor Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 125	I think one could just offer maybe 10 or 15MB .ts or .m2t files from each camera, for playback in VLC. As Ken mentioned though, that wouldn't account for the post work needed to make the HD10 footage shine. I agree with Ken. If you don't know what you're doing with the HD10 it will show. That sort of ruins the "control" aspect of the shoot out / experiment / demonstration. The conductor of the shoot-out should have many hours of experience with the HD10. Otherwise it's like someone who's never driven stick comparing a manual-transmission car to one with an automatic.

December 13th, 2004, 10:36 AM	#8
Davi Dortas Membership Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 78	I not have first hand experience with HD10, but I saw images from IBC Amsterdam, in broad daylight, the camcorder has very bad color rendition. Almost like no color, and detail of grass, etc, very wishy-washy. I was put off immediately. And this handled by so-called experienced peoples. But I also reads somewhere about someone shooting lower exposure to compensate for non-existant exposure lattitude and compensating for it in post. I have to laugh when I read that statement.

December 13th, 2004, 11:55 AM	#10
Bill Piedra Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Manchester CT USA Posts: 109	Please don't get me wrong, I was able to produce REMARKABLE images from the HD10, but it took some work. Lighting was critical, there seem to be more chroma noise than I would consider acceptable, and though the color was good, I think you will see that the SONY color seems to be much more brilliant. One of the things that ALWAYS impressed me by HDTV was COLOR. I'm finding I can produce images that are much closer to that which is being broadcast today with the Sony than I can with the JVC. And I have only had the Sony camera for a couple of weeks.

December 13th, 2004, 12:25 PM	#11
Davi Dortas Membership Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 78	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : And as a freindly reminder, making remarks such as "everbody knows XYZ camera sucks" will earn you a fast ticket out of here. -->>> My apologies. You see how much ignorance I have. Not everyone live and breaths DV and is knowledgeable to the bone of these matters.

December 13th, 2004, 12:31 PM	#12
Davi Dortas Membership Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 78	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : from Steve Mullen, one of the most proficient HDV users-->>> Not to be trite but let me ask you this simple question. How MANY people are of of Steve Mullen-calibre when it comes to his breadth of technical knowledge? I answer for you: very few. So you need to be a Mullen to enjoy using this camera?

December 13th, 2004, 05:43 PM	#14
Hayden Rivers Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 53	Re: SONY HDR-FX1 vs JVC JYHD10U Shoot Out <<<-- Originally posted by Bill Piedra : Hello again all. ALSO: Can any HOST the comparison footage? It's several gigabytes, but I'm sure I can trim it down. -->>> I've emailed Chris, but I think that in this new world of super hi-res video that's several gigabytes, or even in the old world where people want to share 50mb-700mb, we need to start seriously considering Bittorrent. I'm sure people around here have used bittorrent and it's perfect for this type of data movement. There's dozens of people who want to download your video, it only makes sense that they help to distribute the video to other people using their bandwidth. That way even someone without a webpage or any type of webhosting can share his clips with the forum without having to ask for someone who can host the footage.

December 13th, 2004, 06:04 PM	#15
Bill Piedra Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Manchester CT USA Posts: 109	I agree 100% - BITTORRENT is the way to go for the distribution of large files.