Hdv Final Product

Mike Tiffee · January 14th, 2005, 05:39 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : I'm sorry, but no matter which way anyone tries to sway this by saying they've never had a dropout yet etc, it is still a risk. -->>>

Yes, and DV, DVCAM, HDCAM, BETA SP, DIGIBETA, all have risks of dropouts. I've seen 2 or 3 dropouts of HDV footage on standard DV tapes.. I'm on my 3rd CASE of HDV tapes and haven't seen a single one and I shuttle, view, eject, shuttle, view, capture, eject, rewind, fast foward, take to a buddys house, shuttle view, freeze frame, play, slow mo, rewind, eject, shuttle... etc. lol

I would have no problem, after actually using the camera for the last 2 and 1/2 months and having experience to base this on, using this camera to shoot a wedding or presidential address.

I agree that a better format is coming- whether it's this year, next or 2007, who knows. I'd be surprised if a new format or new non HDV camera (read DVCPROHD) came out this year at the same price point as the FX-1/Z1. Soon storage won't be an issue and we'll be recording 4:4:4 uncompressed 1080p HD on solid state.

Kevin Shaw · January 14th, 2005, 06:20 PM

Simon: those are fair comments, but as far as dropouts are concerned that's why I always try to keep two cameras running for anything important at a wedding. I agree that the significance of a dropout in HDV is a potential concern, but it's not an insurmountable problem. If I can find customers willing to pay extra for HDV wedding videos, I'll figure that issue out.

Toke Lahti · January 14th, 2005, 06:32 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd: ...VX2100/PD170 niche... -->>>

Wouldn't call this a small niche. Pd150 was the best selling model Sony has had and I'll bet that they will sell fx1/z1's dozens of times more than dsr400's.

If 400 is replacing 300's series, then it seems that hdv has already having a big impact in pro series, when sony is dumping 1/2" models once and for all.

Maybe there is 1/2" hd cameras coming, like HDC-X300, but hopefully 16:9.
Hope they got guts to tell that old chief engineer who's fixated with interlaced picture that customers are demanding progressive. That japanise hierarchy...

Simon Wyndham · January 14th, 2005, 06:37 PM

Kevin, if you've got two cameras, that's fine. Although not everyone does.

Mike, DV, DVCAM etc do suffer dropouts (well the tape versions of them do anyway), but they are only ever 1 frame or so and are correctable in post. HDV loses 1/2 a second or more! it's no small problem. 2 and a half months is not enough time to evaluate the technical reliability of the camera. Plus if you follow Sony's advice and keep using the head cleaning tape you will probably wear out the heads even quicker than normal.

Sony obviously think that the dropout thing is enough of a problem to warrant a special tape and supplying a head cleaner with the camera.

What you have said about you personally not experiencing dropouts is exaclty what I was on about. It's blinkered. The one time you're not expecting it it will happen. It's inevitable, you WILL suffer from a dropout, and if it's on a shot that is unrepeatable your up a creek without a paddle because unlike DV there's no fix.

The likelyhood might seem small. But then you don't know. You haven't had the camera for long so who knows what the effects of prolonged use are. It wouldn't be so bad if it recorded all I frames. But it doesn't. I wouldn't risk it on an important project with one time only shots, and if a client wanted HDV for some reason for such a thing I'd have no hesitation in pointing it out to them. It's a small risk, but a risk none the less. Even more so for news gatherers. With the way that some of their equipment is treated I'd hate to think what kind of messups they might end up with in time.

Simon Wyndham · January 14th, 2005, 06:39 PM

Just as an illustration of how bad a dropout could potentially be, what if the tape dropout was either side of the I frame? That's one serious dropout!

Simon Wyndham · January 14th, 2005, 06:40 PM

Toke, in Japan interlacing is the preferred format. They see progressive, at least in 24p form, as inferior.

Steve Crisdale · January 14th, 2005, 07:25 PM

Why not try thinking outside the box for a moment.

Let's imagine the number of households with computers. Let's also imagine that a network HD capable media player is about $200....add network card (for older machines), cable and possibly router...maximum $375.

Not only can you watch or listen to whatever you want but it can be delivered on any format. The new network HD media players have a flexibility of use that may be difficult for those stuck on a linear delivery mode to comprehend.

For my money Blu-ray and HD-DVD - being dedicated and expensive expansion devices, are dead in the water before they're even released. Why would anyone pay hundreds of dollars for another flaming box that they're going to have to find space for (in already crowded cabinets and shelves); let alone a spare set of component 'ins', and all it does is play proprietry format disks...

Network HD capable media players are the low-cost portals that will ultimately power much of the mass acceptance of HD because they increase connectivity rather than restricting it even further, regardless of whether you presently have an SD setup or not. The only truly essential HD device you require with a network HD media player (apart from a computer of course) is a HD monitor.

Anything else like a DVB-t or s card for streaming or recording live HD broadcasts is supplemental and incredibly affordable compared to stand-alone receivers.

To all intents and purposes network HD media players will fulfill the promise of computer driven digital entertainment.

Even Sony has recognised this fact with the impending release of their own network HD media player. They're even launching VAIO computers with expanded HD support; not that it's essential - it's just a mark of how seriously they're taking the computer driven digital entertainment market.

The true facts regarding HDV final product delivery are that there's no definitive answer as yet because the delivery landscape is in a constant state of flux; but to write off HDV based on what's achievable at this very moment may be premature.

Simon Wyndham · January 14th, 2005, 07:47 PM

You know Steve, you've hit on something there. It would be ideal to have such a system. Although it will all depend on who makes the most material available and gets market penetration first. I'd love a do-all system. My dream is to have a playback system that doesn't care what you feed it!

Kevin Shaw · January 14th, 2005, 07:49 PM

Y'know, I had a similar discussion once with someone who refuses to run a second camera unless he's getting paid a lot of extra money to do so, and he depends on his E&O insurance to cover his butt if anything goes wrong. It's basically the same issue with HDV except the significance of a dropout is potentially bigger, but any dropout in any format is a nuisance. So yes, it's a real concern whether HDV can be used reliably for important work, but there are ways to deal with that just like with any video camera. If you're shooting HDV and don't have access to a second HDV camera, you could at least run a second DV camera as a backup so you don't completely miss something important.

I'll agree that we don't know enough yet about HDV to assess long-term reliability of the equipment, but so far people seem to be getting fine results when shooting with good tape.

Mike Tiffee · January 14th, 2005, 07:52 PM

The AVeL Linkplayer two is pretty much what you're looking for.. you can throw just about anything at it

Mike Tiffee · January 14th, 2005, 07:53 PM

<<<-- but so far people seem to be getting fine results when shooting with good tape. -->>>

Flawless.

Kevin Shaw · January 14th, 2005, 07:56 PM

Simon Wyndham · January 14th, 2005, 08:03 PM

I agree Kevin ;-)

Kevin Shaw · January 14th, 2005, 08:40 PM

Somehow one of my posts seems to have gotten mixed up in another thread, so I was trying to fix that. Never mind...

:-)

Toke Lahti · January 15th, 2005, 03:57 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham: Mike, DV, DVCAM etc do suffer dropouts (well the tape versions of them do anyway), but they are only ever 1 frame or so and are correctable in post. -->>>

How do you correct them?

January 14th, 2005, 05:39 PM	#76
Mike Tiffee Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 150	<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : I'm sorry, but no matter which way anyone tries to sway this by saying they've never had a dropout yet etc, it is still a risk. -->>> Yes, and DV, DVCAM, HDCAM, BETA SP, DIGIBETA, all have risks of dropouts. I've seen 2 or 3 dropouts of HDV footage on standard DV tapes.. I'm on my 3rd CASE of HDV tapes and haven't seen a single one and I shuttle, view, eject, shuttle, view, capture, eject, rewind, fast foward, take to a buddys house, shuttle view, freeze frame, play, slow mo, rewind, eject, shuttle... etc. lol I would have no problem, after actually using the camera for the last 2 and 1/2 months and having experience to base this on, using this camera to shoot a wedding or presidential address. I agree that a better format is coming- whether it's this year, next or 2007, who knows. I'd be surprised if a new format or new non HDV camera (read DVCPROHD) came out this year at the same price point as the FX-1/Z1. Soon storage won't be an issue and we'll be recording 4:4:4 uncompressed 1080p HD on solid state.

January 14th, 2005, 06:20 PM	#77
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Simon: those are fair comments, but as far as dropouts are concerned that's why I always try to keep two cameras running for anything important at a wedding. I agree that the significance of a dropout in HDV is a potential concern, but it's not an insurmountable problem. If I can find customers willing to pay extra for HDV wedding videos, I'll figure that issue out.

January 14th, 2005, 06:32 PM	#78
Toke Lahti Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 158	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd: ...VX2100/PD170 niche... -->>> Wouldn't call this a small niche. Pd150 was the best selling model Sony has had and I'll bet that they will sell fx1/z1's dozens of times more than dsr400's. If 400 is replacing 300's series, then it seems that hdv has already having a big impact in pro series, when sony is dumping 1/2" models once and for all. Maybe there is 1/2" hd cameras coming, like HDC-X300, but hopefully 16:9. Hope they got guts to tell that old chief engineer who's fixated with interlaced picture that customers are demanding progressive. That japanise hierarchy...

January 14th, 2005, 06:37 PM	#79
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Kevin, if you've got two cameras, that's fine. Although not everyone does. Mike, DV, DVCAM etc do suffer dropouts (well the tape versions of them do anyway), but they are only ever 1 frame or so and are correctable in post. HDV loses 1/2 a second or more! it's no small problem. 2 and a half months is not enough time to evaluate the technical reliability of the camera. Plus if you follow Sony's advice and keep using the head cleaning tape you will probably wear out the heads even quicker than normal. Sony obviously think that the dropout thing is enough of a problem to warrant a special tape and supplying a head cleaner with the camera. What you have said about you personally not experiencing dropouts is exaclty what I was on about. It's blinkered. The one time you're not expecting it it will happen. It's inevitable, you WILL suffer from a dropout, and if it's on a shot that is unrepeatable your up a creek without a paddle because unlike DV there's no fix. The likelyhood might seem small. But then you don't know. You haven't had the camera for long so who knows what the effects of prolonged use are. It wouldn't be so bad if it recorded all I frames. But it doesn't. I wouldn't risk it on an important project with one time only shots, and if a client wanted HDV for some reason for such a thing I'd have no hesitation in pointing it out to them. It's a small risk, but a risk none the less. Even more so for news gatherers. With the way that some of their equipment is treated I'd hate to think what kind of messups they might end up with in time.

January 14th, 2005, 06:39 PM	#80
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Just as an illustration of how bad a dropout could potentially be, what if the tape dropout was either side of the I frame? That's one serious dropout!

January 14th, 2005, 06:40 PM	#81
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Toke, in Japan interlacing is the preferred format. They see progressive, at least in 24p form, as inferior.

January 14th, 2005, 07:25 PM	#82
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	Why not try thinking outside the box for a moment. Let's imagine the number of households with computers. Let's also imagine that a network HD capable media player is about $200....add network card (for older machines), cable and possibly router...maximum $375. Not only can you watch or listen to whatever you want but it can be delivered on any format. The new network HD media players have a flexibility of use that may be difficult for those stuck on a linear delivery mode to comprehend. For my money Blu-ray and HD-DVD - being dedicated and expensive expansion devices, are dead in the water before they're even released. Why would anyone pay hundreds of dollars for another flaming box that they're going to have to find space for (in already crowded cabinets and shelves); let alone a spare set of component 'ins', and all it does is play proprietry format disks... Network HD capable media players are the low-cost portals that will ultimately power much of the mass acceptance of HD because they increase connectivity rather than restricting it even further, regardless of whether you presently have an SD setup or not. The only truly essential HD device you require with a network HD media player (apart from a computer of course) is a HD monitor. Anything else like a DVB-t or s card for streaming or recording live HD broadcasts is supplemental and incredibly affordable compared to stand-alone receivers. To all intents and purposes network HD media players will fulfill the promise of computer driven digital entertainment. Even Sony has recognised this fact with the impending release of their own network HD media player. They're even launching VAIO computers with expanded HD support; not that it's essential - it's just a mark of how seriously they're taking the computer driven digital entertainment market. The true facts regarding HDV final product delivery are that there's no definitive answer as yet because the delivery landscape is in a constant state of flux; but to write off HDV based on what's achievable at this very moment may be premature.

January 14th, 2005, 07:47 PM	#83
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	You know Steve, you've hit on something there. It would be ideal to have such a system. Although it will all depend on who makes the most material available and gets market penetration first. I'd love a do-all system. My dream is to have a playback system that doesn't care what you feed it!

January 14th, 2005, 07:49 PM	#84
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Y'know, I had a similar discussion once with someone who refuses to run a second camera unless he's getting paid a lot of extra money to do so, and he depends on his E&O insurance to cover his butt if anything goes wrong. It's basically the same issue with HDV except the significance of a dropout is potentially bigger, but any dropout in any format is a nuisance. So yes, it's a real concern whether HDV can be used reliably for important work, but there are ways to deal with that just like with any video camera. If you're shooting HDV and don't have access to a second HDV camera, you could at least run a second DV camera as a backup so you don't completely miss something important. I'll agree that we don't know enough yet about HDV to assess long-term reliability of the equipment, but so far people seem to be getting fine results when shooting with good tape.

January 14th, 2005, 07:52 PM	#85
Mike Tiffee Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 150	The AVeL Linkplayer two is pretty much what you're looking for.. you can throw just about anything at it

January 14th, 2005, 07:53 PM	#86
Mike Tiffee Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 150	<<<-- but so far people seem to be getting fine results when shooting with good tape. -->>> Flawless.

January 14th, 2005, 07:56 PM	#87
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488

January 14th, 2005, 08:03 PM	#88
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I agree Kevin ;-)

January 14th, 2005, 08:40 PM	#89
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Somehow one of my posts seems to have gotten mixed up in another thread, so I was trying to fix that. Never mind... :-)

January 15th, 2005, 03:57 AM	#90
Toke Lahti Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 158	<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham: Mike, DV, DVCAM etc do suffer dropouts (well the tape versions of them do anyway), but they are only ever 1 frame or so and are correctable in post. -->>> How do you correct them?