Clips not seamless in HDV

[Jeff Chandler]

It seems there must be some reason for it because (if I'm not mistaken) all of these types of devices, regardless of the company, are FAT32.

[Matt McEwen]

Hi Danny,

I am just reporting what our test department has found when using Vegas Video 6 and FS-4 HD with m2t files. I have read your thread and seen the issue you have reported and will log it as a bug. I believe that you have also spoken with tech support and they have logged this bug with engineering.

As far as disk formats are concerned, we originally choose FAT32 with FS because at the time, it was the only disk format that was compatible with Windows and the Mac. Selecting NTFS would have meant we would have also needed an HFS+ version for Mac users which would involve dual development. Getting the FS Operating System and Application to run on a different disk format is not a trivial task.

Hope that helps,

Matt

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by Matt McEwen

Hi Danny,

I am just reporting what our test department has found when using Vegas Video 6 and FS-4 HD with m2t files. I have read your thread and seen the issue you have reported and will log it as a bug. I believe that you have also spoken with tech support and they have logged this bug with engineering.

As far as disk formats are concerned, we originally choose FAT32 with FS because at the time, it was the only disk format that was compatible with Windows and the Mac. Selecting NTFS would have meant we would have also needed an HFS+ version for Mac users which would involve dual development. Getting the FS Operating System and Application to run on a different disk format is not a trivial task.

Hope that helps,

Matt

So Matt, what do you think of the idea of formatting the hard drive to be NTFS for Windows and FAT32 for the Mac?

Seems like that would not involve dual development and then you would not need the HFS+ for the Mac.

Allow the option and give Windows users what they need and the Mac users what they need. Right?

Question, are there any problems with the file splitting for those who use the Mac and also use QuickTime for HD? If not then the FAT32 would be fine for the Mac and the NTFS would be fine for Windows.

Meanwhile, how else would the split file problem be fixed for Windows?

I am getting ready to go to the theater tonight and do a test recording in HDV. I will let you know what the results are later.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Jeff Chandler]

I'm speculating again (something that is probably a little risky!), Danny, but if I'm reading what Matt is saying correctly, I think there would have to be some tyupe of hardware difference and that would require two separate units. And that would increase manufacturing costs for FE.

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by Jeff Chandler

I'm speculating again (something that is probably a little risky!), Danny, but if I'm reading what Matt is saying correctly, I think there would have to be some tyupe of hardware difference and that would require two separate units. And that would increase manufacturing costs for FE.

Actually it is a platform problem, PC vs Mac. The problem is, in the early days of the FS models Macs could only read FAT32 not NTFS. According to what I have found on Apple.com the later versions of Mac Os will read an NTFS volume but not write to it. The purpose of the FS is to be read from only anyway so it would seem that going to NTFS now should no longer be a problem. Google searches brought up issues that those with Macs had with NTFS but most of those were dated back to 2003. Those who use Macs can explain all of this much better than I can.


Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Matt McEwen]

Hi Danny,

I wish it was as simple as just doing an option to create a FAT32 format or an NTFS (or even HFS+) for that matter. FS products have an operating system (just like a computer) that is designed to work with a particular disk format . In the case of FS, that format is FAT32 and it would be extremely difficult and very time consuming to implement support for other disk formats. Our policy is to only support disk formats that are supported for read/write on the Mac and Windows platform.

As for Vegas issue you have reported, we are looking into it.

Hope that helps.

Matt

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by Matt McEwen

Hi Danny,

I wish it was as simple as just doing an option to create a FAT32 format or an NTFS (or even HFS+) for that matter. FS products have an operating system (just like a computer) that is designed to work with a particular disk format . In the case of FS, that format is FAT32 and it would be extremely difficult and very time consuming to implement support for other disk formats. Our policy is to only support disk formats that are supported for read/write on the Mac and Windows platform.

As for Vegas issue you have reported, we are looking into it.

Hope that helps.

Matt

One reason why I was harping on NTFS so much is that it seems like it should have been an easy solution. Another reason is that I prefer to work with one long file instead of a bunch of little files. I don't understand why it should be extremely difficult to do but if it is, then it is.

So much for NTFS...

I have a question about the FAT32. Why the 2 gig limit instead of 4 gig? Will the Mac read a drive formatted using FAT32 with 4 gig files? At least with a 4 gig limit there wouldn't need to be as many blasted files to deal with.

It seems like the FS-4 HD is being more limited than it really needs to be by using 2 gig instead of 4 gig files.

As for the Vegas issues, how would it be possible to create split HDV files that can be loaded into Vegas and still be seamless? That is something Focus Enhancements technicians will have to figure out.

Problem is, not only would they have to solve the problem for Vegas but do so in such a way as not to cause problems for other NLE's. Seems like that could end up being more difficult than what it would be to dump the FAT32 and redo the whole thing for NTFS.

Whatever the case may be, the ability of the FS-4 HD to work with HDV has proven to be a whole lot more difficult than what was originally anticipated. I hope a fix for all of the issues will be available soon.

I captured HDV from tapes I recorded yesterday at the theater. The FS-4 HD stayed home. Bottom line is, that is NOT what I bought the FS-4 HD for.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Matt Vanecek]

Originally Posted by Danny Fye

I have a question about the FAT32. Why the 2 gig limit instead of 4 gig? Will the Mac read a drive formatted using FAT32 with 4 gig files? At least with a 4 gig limit there wouldn't need to be as many blasted files to deal with.

IIRC, the issue is with the FAT32 filesystem itself being limited to maximum file sizes of 2G. I never had a file that big on a Win98 system, but everything I've read indicates that the file size is a limitation of the file system, and not of the operating system reading the file (although the OS would be forced to respect the limit upon writing...).

Linux has NTFS access, so I doubt that Focus would face license issues (unless they licensed an official version with MS support built in, maybe). The file system specs are "open" (as much as MS will open anything), to the best of my knowledge.

Depending on the quality of throughput, I would tend to want to abstract the file system from the operating application. Either have pluggable modules (a la Linux), or have a layer sitting between the FS4 system and the hard drive, that sits on top of the file system type driver. The driver could be replacable in ROM, or maybe multiple drivers available with the filesystem abstract layer being flagged in config for which driver to use. Or it could auto-detect the file system type.

Anyhow, if engineered from the git-go to be modular WRT file systems (kinda like Linux...), then all you need is the filesystem driver and a selection dialog for the user to choose a disk's filesystem. However, if the FS4 has not been engineered to account for that modularity, then re-engineering the FS4 may not provide any return on investment (or enough of one) to make it worthwhile. HOWEVER, it's possible that an FS5 might could include such a capability (hint hint).

Filesystems aren't "hard", but maybe FS4 has hardware limitations limiting the software ability?

Just my $.02....

Thanks
Matt V.

[Danny Fye]

"IIRC, the issue is with the FAT32 filesystem itself being limited to maximum file sizes of 2G. "

Not so. FAT32 has a limit of 4 gig. FAT16 had the limit of 2 gig.

The FS-4 HD is either not making full use of FAT32 or it is actually FAT16.

I did a Google search and found quite a number of sites that confirm what I have just said. Most notable is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table

There is a chart that shows the file sizes of FAT12, FAT16 and FAT32. FAT12 has a limit of 32MB, FAT16 has a limit of 2GB and FAT32 has a limit of 4GB.

So, if the FS-4 HD has a file system of FAT32, then why is it being limited to 2GB instead of 4GB?

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Bill Ravens]

I'm with you in your wishes for NTSC or larger file sizes, Danny. The plain fact is however, the FAT file size is a problem only programmers must understand. I've owned several video capture drives, including ADS and citidisk. They all use a FAT32 file system. In fact, I've reformatted several of my older ADS video drives to FAT32 via Windoze XP, because there is no format utility provided with those disk solutions.

[Matt McEwen]

Your request for a disk format that supports files >2GB (NTFS or other) has been noted. As for the Vegas issue, we are looking into it and will post more news here when available.

Matt

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by Matt McEwen

Your request for a disk format that supports files >2GB (NTFS or other) has been noted. As for the Vegas issue, we are looking into it and will post more news here when available.

Matt

Thanks much Matt.

On the positive side of things, the FS-4 HD works quite well with SD (even though I don't like the split files) and the files transfer somewhat faster than I thought they would. Most of the problems I have seen reported are HDV related. Either time-code related and/or long GOP related. In this case, GOP stands for Groups Of Problems. Grin...

Looks like HDV turned out to be a whole lot more difficult to deal with than what Focus Enhancements anticipated. It seems to have a lot to do with how the different NLE's handle the files, especially the files that have been split. This is why I feel it is important to utilize NTFS as part of the solution and no longer split the files.

Seems that what you do to fix things with one NLE would break things for another NLE and/or make things so complicated that the software/firmware code would get too bloated. Also future changes, updates and upgrades to the various NLE's would re-complicate/re-break things.

I am looking for a solution that would not only solve the current problems but also help prevent future problems as well.

I'd hate to see the code get all bloated up with patches and bandages only to get re-broken with the next change in an NLE. As an example, Vegas 6 already has a crack in it and Vegas 7 is broken when it comes to handling the files created by the FS-4 HD. What will happen with Vegas 8 or even the next update? More of the same?

While NTFS is not a simple fix afterall, I don't think there is a simple fix for FAT32 either. And trying to fix for FAT32 will only mean future problems.

So my point is, lets get it right now and avoid having to deal with this again in the future.

Sincerely,
Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Brent Graham]

Danny,

I know this is an FS forum here but I would suggest looking into nnovia, their new QC deck has both fat32 and ntfs among other really cool consumer desired options.

I would say that when a company tells you what they 'can' do rather than listens to what they need to do to keep growing their customers, they ought not be your company of choice.

NTFS is the file system that replaced fat32, the DTEs that replace these current companies will utilize that newer file system I'm sure.

Problem is I think you bought too early and possibly from the wrong company for your needs.

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by Brent Graham

Danny,

I know this is an FS forum here but I would suggest looking into nnovia, their new QC deck has both fat32 and ntfs among other really cool consumer desired options.

I would say that when a company tells you what they 'can' do rather than listens to what they need to do to keep growing their customers, they ought not be your company of choice.

NTFS is the file system that replaced fat32, the DTEs that replace these current companies will utilize that newer file system I'm sure.

Problem is I think you bought too early and possibly from the wrong company for your needs.

At $1898.95 (B&H) their prices are a bit too high for me right now.

Thanks anyway,

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs