Firestore Questions at DVinfo.net

Steve Witt · September 29th, 2005, 10:58 AM

So if I shoot my video to Firestore and then connect to my computer, then the footage does not need to go to my computer's harddrive? so you can edit video with a smaller harddrive or less harddrive space. Is this correct.

Mark Utley · September 29th, 2005, 12:00 PM

You can edit right from the Firestore, yes.

Steve Witt · September 29th, 2005, 03:41 PM

what is a "realistic price" for a 40GB one of these? Ive seen anywhere from about $500 to over $1100 for these. Im sure some of these can't be legit. Thanks.

Chris Hurd · September 29th, 2005, 06:11 PM

Different prices for different versions. The basic FS-4 retails for $750 while the pro version FS-4 retails for $1200. Differences between the two are listed at http://www.focusinfo.com/products/datasheets/FS-4DS.pdf -- a $500 price is probably for the older FS-1, it is a bridge only, no drive included.

Steve Witt · September 29th, 2005, 08:22 PM

Ok, now that I am starting to understand this......wouldn't this mean that if you have only a "decent" laptop, that this would give that laptop the advantage of "freedom" to do its job better (since it's own harddrive is not being used to store the footage) as long as that laptop has a decent processor. In other words....Not only is the Firestore convienent, but it also gives you more power (so to speak) at the editing computer. Wouldn't this be correct? I mean you are now keeping all of that computer harddrive free....so won't the computer work faster and better in most cases? I may be totally misunderstanding all of what goes on in a computer when editing though because I'm not sure if the "working progress" footage goes to the computer harddrive as you create what will be the finished product. Thanks so much for your help. Please help me understand this.

Chris Hurd · September 29th, 2005, 09:14 PM

When editing video on a computer, it's always a good idea to have the computer's operating system plus the editing software on one drive, and the video itself on another. So in your case with a laptop, yes using the FireStore as an editing deck will ease the strain on the laptop's hard drive.

Gary Bettan · September 30th, 2005, 07:35 AM

FireStore FS-4 is a fantastic product. You can edit directly from it, or copy the files to your hard drive. When copying, the data moves at the speed of data - unlike capturing video which takes an hour to capture an hour.

There are currently 4 flavors of FireStore available

FS4 w/ 40GB drive $749.95
FS4 Pro w/ 40GB $1195
FS4 Pro w/ 80 GB drive $1595

Pro versions add support for Avid & Pinnacle file systems. We are running several promotions with field kits. The Field kit gives you an extra battery and a mounting bracket.

For more info on FireStore check out http://www.videoguys.com/FireStore.html

Don't forget your DVinfoNet 5% discount!!

Gary

Todd Kivimaki · September 30th, 2005, 10:20 AM

You can edit directly from the firestore, but I see a significant hit in performance when doing so. A lot of time is spent I/O bound, and not as much time is compute bound. Thus meaning longer render/wait times. Take a look at your Performance monitor in the Windows Task Monitor (if you are using a PC) here you can monitor the CPU(s) usage. If the CPU usage is not at 100% then you are being slowed down by I/O (writing to the hard drive).

You won't increase "editing power" when using the firestore, it will actually be slower, but you won't take up your computer’s hard drive space.

Steve Witt · October 2nd, 2005, 06:28 AM

Thanks todd,
I'm wondering, does the computers proccessor have to do with outbound/inbound speeds. This may be a silly question. Anyway if you have a really fast (say maybe 3.0mhz or higher) proccessor would this help or does it not help o/i stuff.

Jane Snijders · October 2nd, 2005, 06:30 AM

would love to use a firestore for recording hdv material. Sad that it is not yet quicktime compatible. at ibc they said they were working on it...
Just did a production with 25 tapes......1hr each......so at least two days of capturing time with fcp........

Steve Witt · October 2nd, 2005, 08:18 AM

Ok, here is my goal. I spend a lot of time in hotels with my job, and I want to work with DV as a fairly serious hobbiest with my spare time. I want to get a pretty good laptop with decent sized harddrive and put some good editing software on there and also add some music creation sofware...maybe even some other software, (so in other words...I'm using up the harddrive space already!) Then get the "firestore" to actually edit the video footage from. So, with all this extra software that I want to have, is this plan on its way to disaster? Is all this too much to expect from a laptop. It doesn't have to be the fastest machine, just a capable one. Turnkey is not an option because I also want to use the wireless web and other traditional laptop uses. Maybe I'm wanting too much here? Thanks.

Todd Kivimaki · October 2nd, 2005, 10:34 AM

Your processor speed doesn't really matter when it comes to writing to disk.

The thread (editing program) will call the processor when it has a compute bound job. The thread will use the processor for its quantum ( its allotted amount of time) If in-between this time, the thread needs to write to disk, the process will become blocked (state 5 in a windows machine) during this blocked time the processor is not working but waiting for the disk to complete its job. If you are slowed down at this point it doesn't matter if you have the best processor available because it is not doing anything but waiting for the disk to finish.

I am doing quite a bit of editing on a laptop, which happens to be 10 months old. It's a P4 3.0ghz, with 512 ram. I have upgraded the hard drive to a 7200 rpm drive (from a 4200rpm drive), and have noticed better overall system performance. I have noticed less time is spent waiting on the hard drive, and better render times.

How much footage are you editing? I shoot home tours and am only working with about 10 minutes of footage max, I really wouldn't want to edit a couple of hours worth of footage on my laptop, it would be doable but I am spoiled with a fast desktop, it’s hard to go from fast to slow.

Steve Witt · October 2nd, 2005, 11:20 AM

Todd, you are helpin' me out here more than you'll ever know. Thankyou. So if I want to improve the I/O times....I should get the fastest hard drive "rpms" as I can. Is that correct?
How much footage am I going to work with? Well I not sure but I could probably fit about three hours of video on to a Firestore. and then shoot for a "final product" of about one hour or so. For as little experience as I have in this stuff, I am pretty ambitious about special effects like compositing and forced perspectives (i have only read about this stuff so far). I just think all this DV stuff is so cool, I feel like a kid again and I can't wait to dig in...but I don't have time at home to fool with it because I need to spend that time with my family and my share of the chores. This is why I want to make sure I can do everything I'm wanting to do with DV on a laptop. I will make DVDs of my family that will completely knock their socks off!!! I want to make a Feature-Film like production starring my family members complete with a storyline and some most excellent special effects.

Todd Kivimaki · October 2nd, 2005, 12:41 PM

Yes that's correct. It's a Hitachi Travelstar Drive, I picked up a 60 gig, which serves me fine, sounds like you would benefit better from the 100gig version. I think Seagate makes 7200 rpm laptop drives as well. They aren't the easiest thing to get, supply always seems to be low.

I think you would be fine if you got a nice high end laptop, probably wouldn't have to be the best of the best either. Anything you buy today should be able to handle it (non-celeron) render times will be longer with a slower processor. If you had to choose (money wise) between a faster processor or a faster hard drive, definatly go with the faster hard drive. Lots of memory helps too.

Daniel Kohl · October 3rd, 2005, 04:34 AM

Just one comment here.

"Render time" keep being mentioned here. But strictly speaking, editing - that is to say rough cutting (that which takes the most creative time, in my opinion), does not require much, if any rendering with most modern EDL systems. A laptop with a FS4 would be ideal for rough cutting, or sorting material in the field. The post production and polishing should be done on a more powerful machine for the most gratification.

So I think that the I/O issue maybe not such an issue if you are planning this set-up for anything other than end production.

September 29th, 2005, 10:58 AM	#1
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Firestore Questions So if I shoot my video to Firestore and then connect to my computer, then the footage does not need to go to my computer's harddrive? so you can edit video with a smaller harddrive or less harddrive space. Is this correct.

September 29th, 2005, 12:00 PM	#2
Mark Utley Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 479	You can edit right from the Firestore, yes. __________________ Mark Utley

September 29th, 2005, 06:11 PM	#4
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Different prices for different versions. The basic FS-4 retails for $750 while the pro version FS-4 retails for $1200. Differences between the two are listed at http://www.focusinfo.com/products/datasheets/FS-4DS.pdf -- a $500 price is probably for the older FS-1, it is a bridge only, no drive included. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 29th, 2005, 09:14 PM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	When editing video on a computer, it's always a good idea to have the computer's operating system plus the editing software on one drive, and the video itself on another. So in your case with a laptop, yes using the FireStore as an editing deck will ease the strain on the laptop's hard drive. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 30th, 2005, 07:35 AM	#7
Gary Bettan Sponsor: Electronic Mailbox Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Glen Cove, NY Posts: 758	FireStore FS-4 is a fantastic product. You can edit directly from it, or copy the files to your hard drive. When copying, the data moves at the speed of data - unlike capturing video which takes an hour to capture an hour. There are currently 4 flavors of FireStore available FS4 w/ 40GB drive $749.95 FS4 Pro w/ 40GB $1195 FS4 Pro w/ 80 GB drive $1595 Pro versions add support for Avid & Pinnacle file systems. We are running several promotions with field kits. The Field kit gives you an extra battery and a mounting bracket. For more info on FireStore check out http://www.videoguys.com/FireStore.html Don't forget your DVinfoNet 5% discount!! Gary __________________ Check out http://www.videoguys.com 800 323-2325 We are the video editing and live video production experts! DV InfoNet members save 5%! Use Coupon Code DVINFO5OFF

September 29th, 2005, 03:41 PM	#3
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	what is a "realistic price" for a 40GB one of these? Ive seen anywhere from about $500 to over $1100 for these. Im sure some of these can't be legit. Thanks.

September 29th, 2005, 08:22 PM	#5
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Ok, now that I am starting to understand this......wouldn't this mean that if you have only a "decent" laptop, that this would give that laptop the advantage of "freedom" to do its job better (since it's own harddrive is not being used to store the footage) as long as that laptop has a decent processor. In other words....Not only is the Firestore convienent, but it also gives you more power (so to speak) at the editing computer. Wouldn't this be correct? I mean you are now keeping all of that computer harddrive free....so won't the computer work faster and better in most cases? I may be totally misunderstanding all of what goes on in a computer when editing though because I'm not sure if the "working progress" footage goes to the computer harddrive as you create what will be the finished product. Thanks so much for your help. Please help me understand this.

September 30th, 2005, 10:20 AM	#8
Todd Kivimaki Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Elida Ohio Posts: 217	You can edit directly from the firestore, but I see a significant hit in performance when doing so. A lot of time is spent I/O bound, and not as much time is compute bound. Thus meaning longer render/wait times. Take a look at your Performance monitor in the Windows Task Monitor (if you are using a PC) here you can monitor the CPU(s) usage. If the CPU usage is not at 100% then you are being slowed down by I/O (writing to the hard drive). You won't increase "editing power" when using the firestore, it will actually be slower, but you won't take up your computer’s hard drive space.

October 2nd, 2005, 06:28 AM	#9
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Thanks todd, I'm wondering, does the computers proccessor have to do with outbound/inbound speeds. This may be a silly question. Anyway if you have a really fast (say maybe 3.0mhz or higher) proccessor would this help or does it not help o/i stuff.

October 2nd, 2005, 06:30 AM	#10
Jane Snijders Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: europe Posts: 42	would love to use a firestore for recording hdv material. Sad that it is not yet quicktime compatible. at ibc they said they were working on it... Just did a production with 25 tapes......1hr each......so at least two days of capturing time with fcp........

October 2nd, 2005, 08:18 AM	#11
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Ok, here is my goal. I spend a lot of time in hotels with my job, and I want to work with DV as a fairly serious hobbiest with my spare time. I want to get a pretty good laptop with decent sized harddrive and put some good editing software on there and also add some music creation sofware...maybe even some other software, (so in other words...I'm using up the harddrive space already!) Then get the "firestore" to actually edit the video footage from. So, with all this extra software that I want to have, is this plan on its way to disaster? Is all this too much to expect from a laptop. It doesn't have to be the fastest machine, just a capable one. Turnkey is not an option because I also want to use the wireless web and other traditional laptop uses. Maybe I'm wanting too much here? Thanks.

October 2nd, 2005, 10:34 AM	#12
Todd Kivimaki Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Elida Ohio Posts: 217	Your processor speed doesn't really matter when it comes to writing to disk. The thread (editing program) will call the processor when it has a compute bound job. The thread will use the processor for its quantum ( its allotted amount of time) If in-between this time, the thread needs to write to disk, the process will become blocked (state 5 in a windows machine) during this blocked time the processor is not working but waiting for the disk to complete its job. If you are slowed down at this point it doesn't matter if you have the best processor available because it is not doing anything but waiting for the disk to finish. I am doing quite a bit of editing on a laptop, which happens to be 10 months old. It's a P4 3.0ghz, with 512 ram. I have upgraded the hard drive to a 7200 rpm drive (from a 4200rpm drive), and have noticed better overall system performance. I have noticed less time is spent waiting on the hard drive, and better render times. How much footage are you editing? I shoot home tours and am only working with about 10 minutes of footage max, I really wouldn't want to edit a couple of hours worth of footage on my laptop, it would be doable but I am spoiled with a fast desktop, it’s hard to go from fast to slow.

October 2nd, 2005, 11:20 AM	#13
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Todd, you are helpin' me out here more than you'll ever know. Thankyou. So if I want to improve the I/O times....I should get the fastest hard drive "rpms" as I can. Is that correct? How much footage am I going to work with? Well I not sure but I could probably fit about three hours of video on to a Firestore. and then shoot for a "final product" of about one hour or so. For as little experience as I have in this stuff, I am pretty ambitious about special effects like compositing and forced perspectives (i have only read about this stuff so far). I just think all this DV stuff is so cool, I feel like a kid again and I can't wait to dig in...but I don't have time at home to fool with it because I need to spend that time with my family and my share of the chores. This is why I want to make sure I can do everything I'm wanting to do with DV on a laptop. I will make DVDs of my family that will completely knock their socks off!!! I want to make a Feature-Film like production starring my family members complete with a storyline and some most excellent special effects.

October 2nd, 2005, 12:41 PM	#14
Todd Kivimaki Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Elida Ohio Posts: 217	Yes that's correct. It's a Hitachi Travelstar Drive, I picked up a 60 gig, which serves me fine, sounds like you would benefit better from the 100gig version. I think Seagate makes 7200 rpm laptop drives as well. They aren't the easiest thing to get, supply always seems to be low. I think you would be fine if you got a nice high end laptop, probably wouldn't have to be the best of the best either. Anything you buy today should be able to handle it (non-celeron) render times will be longer with a slower processor. If you had to choose (money wise) between a faster processor or a faster hard drive, definatly go with the faster hard drive. Lots of memory helps too.

October 3rd, 2005, 04:34 AM	#15
Daniel Kohl Contributor Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 571	Just one comment here. "Render time" keep being mentioned here. But strictly speaking, editing - that is to say rough cutting (that which takes the most creative time, in my opinion), does not require much, if any rendering with most modern EDL systems. A laptop with a FS4 would be ideal for rough cutting, or sorting material in the field. The post production and polishing should be done on a more powerful machine for the most gratification. So I think that the I/O issue maybe not such an issue if you are planning this set-up for anything other than end production. __________________ Daniel Kohl Frankenstein meets XL1