Portable hard disk drive? at DVinfo.net

Dan Uneken · May 24th, 2003, 05:34 AM

I read in another forum that there is a portable hdd that attaches to a belt or even the cam. Sounds like the ultimate solution. Experience anyone?

Dan
http://www.fotofilmvideo.com

K. Forman · May 24th, 2003, 05:47 AM

I know the things you're talking about. I think they are sweet, just veeeeeery pricey. Think about the wear and tear on your tape transport you'll avoid!

Boyd Ostroff · May 24th, 2003, 07:37 AM

There are several of them, such as the FireStore by Videonics: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh2.sph/...ID=F5918901120

They are expensive, but not outrageous. Would be interested to hear impressions from any users. They have gotten some pretty good reviews. On a somewhat related topic, I would be very interested in a battery powered firewire drive that's suitable for video editing with my PowerBook. All the small battery powered drives I've seen are slower mechanisms. Any suggestions?

Dan Uneken · May 24th, 2003, 12:43 PM

To me a 1000 $ gadget that works wouldn't be too expensive. Your camera would last last forever and think of the tapes you don't buy! And capturing is just a matter of deleting!
Whooheeh!!

Dan
http://www.fotofilmvideo.com

Boyd Ostroff · May 24th, 2003, 01:58 PM

Well I just got a copy of the new DV magazine and they review two different devices. It seems that they both have their shortcomings however. The Sony DSR-DU1 has a 40GB drive for $2,350 (not including batteries) and was tested with a PD-150 and PDX-10. A significant limitation is that you need to be rolling tape for it to work. Sort of defeats your head wear argument and also doesn't give you the advantage of being able to capture several hours of continuous video.

The other unit they tested was the CitiDisk DV which cost around $650 for the 40GB version, including builtin batteries. This unit can't be controlled by the camera and has to be manually started and stopped. It also saves its files in a format called "Raw DV" which requires rendering when you attach it to your computer, sort of defeating the purpose of using a hard drive.

Dan, I don't think you'd really save money on tapes, would you? You'll want to archive all your video somehow, and the only practical way at this point would be to send it back to tape, unless you plan to buy lots of firewire drives.

Dan Uneken · May 25th, 2003, 09:41 AM

Sounds like we need to wait a few years more... sounds like the way to go though.

Don Berube · May 25th, 2003, 05:24 PM

A lot of people had high hopes for a small and affordable DV recorder when MCE Tech first started hyping the CitiDisk. From a shooter's standpoint, the fact that it does not adhere to the full AVC command set and cannot be controlled by a DV camera via IEEE1394 is a serious limitation. That you have to manually press REC start/ stop on the CitiDisk everytime you want to record (and that the only indication that you are recording is a simple LED) considerably hinders the viability of the CitiDisk as a solution for shooting in ENG/ EFP or any chaotic shooting situation.

In fairness, MCE Tech made a nice attempt to deliver a DV recorder that addressed what many shooters were pleading for: small size and small price. Perhaps there will be a revised, re-engineered second version which will correct the control limitations inherent in the present design.

"Video iPod" anybody? Now, that would be cool!

- don

David Kates · May 25th, 2003, 08:38 PM

<<<-- Dan, I don't think you'd really save money on tapes, would you? You'll want to archive all your video somehow, and the only practical way at this point would be to send it back to tape, unless you plan to buy lots of firewire drives. -->>>

Wouldn't burning to DVD be the best way to archive? I'm completely new to all this and just picked up a Canon 200MC. DVD burners are quite affordable these days and media is getting to be afforadable as well. What do you think? Davidk

Boyd Ostroff · May 25th, 2003, 08:56 PM

I'll admit that I haven't worked with DVD's, but it seems to me that if you're shooting DV you would want to keep your source material in its original format and not covert to MPEG. Aside from any quality issues arising from re-compression, it would be a pain to have to convert back to DV later in order to edit. I believe an hour of DV fills up around 15 GB, so tapes still seem to be the most practical storage medium.

For those of you that work with DVD's... using a fast machine, how long would it take to convert an hour of DV and burn it onto a disk? How long to go back to tape in the other direction? What sort of quality would be lost in the resulting format change DV > MPEG > DV?

Mark Richman · June 23rd, 2003, 01:59 PM

Manually stopping and starting the CitiDisk is great for me.

Those Catholic weddings always have me sweating at the end when I have 8 minutes of tape left.

Correct me if I am wrong but CitiDisk continues to record even when the tape is being changed or is stopped. Sounds great to me.

Editing would be awesome. Forget rewinding all the tapes and then capturing one by one. Connect the Citidisk and do a batch capture of 6 hours (or more) of DV. Instead of the usual checking on progress, watching till the end, stopping, changing tapes and repeat 4 more times. Hell yeah, one batch capture, for the entire ceremony !!

So let me see if I have this correct. I can record to tape and harddisk simultaneously. Don't have to worry about missing a shot between changing tapes. When I am done, I automatically have back up tapes. Capturing is painless (long but painless) and easy. Wake up, whiners !

I think CitiDisk has this correct, I only hope it "works" and isn't "buggy".

I also believe an Apple DVpod would also be sweet.

Mark

Jeff Farris · June 23rd, 2003, 03:24 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Boyd Ostroff : There are several of them, such as the FireStore by Videonics: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh2.sph/...ID=F5918901120

... On a somewhat related topic, I would be very interested in a battery powered firewire drive that's suitable for video editing with my PowerBook. All the small battery powered drives I've seen are slower mechanisms. Any suggestions? -->>>

These are not battery powered, but powered by the Firewire. Ken Tanaka put me onto this unit, and I am very happy with it. About the size of a pack of cigarettes, and available in sizes up to 80 GB (I use a 40).

http://www.wiebetech.com/index2.html

Back to the original thread, I don't think DVD as archival storage is such a good idea. As Boyd has pointed out, you'll be compressing and converting a lot.

No matter how much editing I do, I have the peace of mind of knowing that my original source data is safe on the tape I shot it on.

Robert Mann Z. · June 24th, 2003, 12:46 AM

<<<--

The other unit they tested was the CitiDisk DV which cost around $650 for the 40GB version, including builtin batteries. This unit can't be controlled by the camera and has to be manually started and stopped. It also saves its files in a format called "Raw DV" which requires rendering when you attach it to your computer, sort of defeating the purpose of using a hard drive.

-->>>

since bruce wrote that AV/C commands have been implemented, so it starts and stop with your cam rec but...

http://www.shining.com/products/totalsolution/citidisk_dv/

my question is does the xl1 give AV/c commands over firewire, i think i heard that it did not...?

also does the xl1 give power off the 1394 plug?

Ken Tanaka · June 24th, 2003, 12:57 AM

I do not know whether or not the XL1/s sends commands via Firewire, but I can say that it cannot power a drive. It has only a 4-pin Firewire connection, which does not carry power.

Sam Eklund · June 24th, 2003, 01:10 AM

About archiving....

One does not have to recompress and store the material as mpeg on the dvd, one could just import the material as uncompressed .avi or any other non-lossy format and then burn it to dvd. Since the DVD-format holds quite a lot af data this could be an alternative for us that doesn't really agree to the fact that tape is a safe medium...

Sam Eklund,
Stockholm, Sweden

Ken Tanaka · June 24th, 2003, 01:47 AM

Unfortunately, today's general DVD's with a 4.7Gb capacity will only hold about 20 minutes of raw DV footage.

May 24th, 2003, 05:34 AM	#1
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	Portable hard disk drive? I read in another forum that there is a portable hdd that attaches to a belt or even the cam. Sounds like the ultimate solution. Experience anyone? Dan http://www.fotofilmvideo.com __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/

May 24th, 2003, 12:43 PM	#4
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	To me a 1000 $ gadget that works wouldn't be too expensive. Your camera would last last forever and think of the tapes you don't buy! And capturing is just a matter of deleting! Whooheeh!! Dan http://www.fotofilmvideo.com __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/

May 25th, 2003, 09:41 AM	#6
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	Sounds like we need to wait a few years more... sounds like the way to go though. __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/

May 25th, 2003, 05:24 PM	#7
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	A lot of people had high hopes for a small and affordable DV recorder when MCE Tech first started hyping the CitiDisk. From a shooter's standpoint, the fact that it does not adhere to the full AVC command set and cannot be controlled by a DV camera via IEEE1394 is a serious limitation. That you have to manually press REC start/ stop on the CitiDisk everytime you want to record (and that the only indication that you are recording is a simple LED) considerably hinders the viability of the CitiDisk as a solution for shooting in ENG/ EFP or any chaotic shooting situation. In fairness, MCE Tech made a nice attempt to deliver a DV recorder that addressed what many shooters were pleading for: small size and small price. Perhaps there will be a revised, re-engineered second version which will correct the control limitations inherent in the present design. "Video iPod" anybody? Now, that would be cool! - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

May 25th, 2003, 08:38 PM	#8
David Kates New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Unionville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 6	Archive to tape? <<<-- Dan, I don't think you'd really save money on tapes, would you? You'll want to archive all your video somehow, and the only practical way at this point would be to send it back to tape, unless you plan to buy lots of firewire drives. -->>> Wouldn't burning to DVD be the best way to archive? I'm completely new to all this and just picked up a Canon 200MC. DVD burners are quite affordable these days and media is getting to be afforadable as well. What do you think? Davidk

May 24th, 2003, 05:47 AM	#2
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	I know the things you're talking about. I think they are sweet, just veeeeeery pricey. Think about the wear and tear on your tape transport you'll avoid!

May 24th, 2003, 07:37 AM	#3
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	There are several of them, such as the FireStore by Videonics: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh2.sph/...ID=F5918901120 They are expensive, but not outrageous. Would be interested to hear impressions from any users. They have gotten some pretty good reviews. On a somewhat related topic, I would be very interested in a battery powered firewire drive that's suitable for video editing with my PowerBook. All the small battery powered drives I've seen are slower mechanisms. Any suggestions?

May 24th, 2003, 01:58 PM	#5
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Well I just got a copy of the new DV magazine and they review two different devices. It seems that they both have their shortcomings however. The Sony DSR-DU1 has a 40GB drive for $2,350 (not including batteries) and was tested with a PD-150 and PDX-10. A significant limitation is that you need to be rolling tape for it to work. Sort of defeats your head wear argument and also doesn't give you the advantage of being able to capture several hours of continuous video. The other unit they tested was the CitiDisk DV which cost around $650 for the 40GB version, including builtin batteries. This unit can't be controlled by the camera and has to be manually started and stopped. It also saves its files in a format called "Raw DV" which requires rendering when you attach it to your computer, sort of defeating the purpose of using a hard drive. Dan, I don't think you'd really save money on tapes, would you? You'll want to archive all your video somehow, and the only practical way at this point would be to send it back to tape, unless you plan to buy lots of firewire drives.

May 25th, 2003, 08:56 PM	#9
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	I'll admit that I haven't worked with DVD's, but it seems to me that if you're shooting DV you would want to keep your source material in its original format and not covert to MPEG. Aside from any quality issues arising from re-compression, it would be a pain to have to convert back to DV later in order to edit. I believe an hour of DV fills up around 15 GB, so tapes still seem to be the most practical storage medium. For those of you that work with DVD's... using a fast machine, how long would it take to convert an hour of DV and burn it onto a disk? How long to go back to tape in the other direction? What sort of quality would be lost in the resulting format change DV > MPEG > DV?

June 23rd, 2003, 01:59 PM	#10
Mark Richman Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sarasota Posts: 79	I think Citidisk has this correct Manually stopping and starting the CitiDisk is great for me. Those Catholic weddings always have me sweating at the end when I have 8 minutes of tape left. Correct me if I am wrong but CitiDisk continues to record even when the tape is being changed or is stopped. Sounds great to me. Editing would be awesome. Forget rewinding all the tapes and then capturing one by one. Connect the Citidisk and do a batch capture of 6 hours (or more) of DV. Instead of the usual checking on progress, watching till the end, stopping, changing tapes and repeat 4 more times. Hell yeah, one batch capture, for the entire ceremony !! So let me see if I have this correct. I can record to tape and harddisk simultaneously. Don't have to worry about missing a shot between changing tapes. When I am done, I automatically have back up tapes. Capturing is painless (long but painless) and easy. Wake up, whiners ! I think CitiDisk has this correct, I only hope it "works" and isn't "buggy". I also believe an Apple DVpod would also be sweet. Mark __________________ Green Novice turning Yellow Pro Soon to be Ripe - So stand back!

June 23rd, 2003, 03:24 PM	#11
Jeff Farris Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 102	<<<-- Originally posted by Boyd Ostroff : There are several of them, such as the FireStore by Videonics: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh2.sph/...ID=F5918901120 ... On a somewhat related topic, I would be very interested in a battery powered firewire drive that's suitable for video editing with my PowerBook. All the small battery powered drives I've seen are slower mechanisms. Any suggestions? -->>> These are not battery powered, but powered by the Firewire. Ken Tanaka put me onto this unit, and I am very happy with it. About the size of a pack of cigarettes, and available in sizes up to 80 GB (I use a 40). http://www.wiebetech.com/index2.html Back to the original thread, I don't think DVD as archival storage is such a good idea. As Boyd has pointed out, you'll be compressing and converting a lot. No matter how much editing I do, I have the peace of mind of knowing that my original source data is safe on the tape I shot it on. __________________ Jeff Farris

June 24th, 2003, 12:46 AM	#12
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	<<<-- The other unit they tested was the CitiDisk DV which cost around $650 for the 40GB version, including builtin batteries. This unit can't be controlled by the camera and has to be manually started and stopped. It also saves its files in a format called "Raw DV" which requires rendering when you attach it to your computer, sort of defeating the purpose of using a hard drive. -->>> since bruce wrote that AV/C commands have been implemented, so it starts and stop with your cam rec but... http://www.shining.com/products/totalsolution/citidisk_dv/ my question is does the xl1 give AV/c commands over firewire, i think i heard that it did not...? also does the xl1 give power off the 1394 plug?

June 24th, 2003, 12:57 AM	#13
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	I do not know whether or not the XL1/s sends commands via Firewire, but I can say that it cannot power a drive. It has only a 4-pin Firewire connection, which does not carry power. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

June 24th, 2003, 01:10 AM	#14
Sam Eklund Tourist Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 4	About archiving.... One does not have to recompress and store the material as mpeg on the dvd, one could just import the material as uncompressed .avi or any other non-lossy format and then burn it to dvd. Since the DVD-format holds quite a lot af data this could be an alternative for us that doesn't really agree to the fact that tape is a safe medium... Sam Eklund, Stockholm, Sweden

June 24th, 2003, 01:47 AM	#15
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Unfortunately, today's general DVD's with a 4.7Gb capacity will only hold about 20 minutes of raw DV footage. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com