Portable hard disk drive?

Virginia Benedict · August 11th, 2003, 03:06 PM

Don,

-- “Why would you want to bypass recording to tape? Tape is cheap. In the here and now, you'll still want to record to tape at the same time when using any of these hard disk recorders, as the tape is now your master backup archive. Always have a backup! Not having a backup is simply not using good judgment, especially when you are charging for your services and you need to get it right the first time. And, if you are not currently archiving all of the footage you shoot, you should be!”--

Did not think of that! It sounds wise! However, I think it “might be” a toss up between extending camcorder life & the cost of using the HD's as archival media.

The more I think about it… Since it is a fairly new technology… Yes, it is wise to have both!

--"having the ability to re-purpose your footage is key."--

Why would one not be able to re-purpose with HD technology?

Can you expand on "re-purpose" from your point of reference, please.

David Mesloh · August 14th, 2003, 12:16 AM

The Laird Capdiv system is really a nice solution. For around 1500.00 you can capture 4.5 hours of video. I have used it in tandem with tapes. That way I have a back-up and when it comes time to transfer the footage it is basically drag and drop. It comes with a 6 hr. battery. weighs about a pound and a half on your belt. If you count the amount of hours you spend in front of your computer capturing video to the computer, this thing saves you time which = money. Besides if we can afford the toys we currently have we can always increase VISA's profits this year by having more toys.........<grin>

David

Virginia Benedict · August 14th, 2003, 06:25 AM

The only concern I have is that, if my memory serves me correctly...

when capturing to a hard drive it is simultaneously compressing!?!?!?!

If so, I consider it a big drawback!!!

All compression algorithms loose characters, spaces and/or pixels.

Uncompressing does not return the original quality of the data, digital or not.

I wonder, if one can turn off the compression as an option!?!?!

Of course, then it becomes a footprint vs real estate issue.

Hence, until the protable hardrive technology evolves...

Don Berube · August 14th, 2003, 08:58 AM

Virginia,

The short answer is "no".

The video is already compressed 5:1 in-camera. By feeding the external firewire recording device an output of the firwire port from your camera, you are in essence capturing the same signal that is being recorded to tape.

To clarify, there is no analog-digital-analog media convertor in these units. They are simply being fed a DV stream from your camera's firewire port.

Here is a link to Focus Enhancement's FAQ .pdf's (bottom of the page, plus some streaming video.
http://www.focusinfo.com/products/fi.../firestore.htm

David, are you using the CapiDV system? That 6-hour battery weighs more than 1 pound, it's more like having a bag of sugar strapped around your waist.

- don

David Mesloh · August 14th, 2003, 09:52 AM

Yes the battery weighs more than a pound, however the unit by itself is about 1.3 pounds . I use a power belt for my camera anyway so I usually can't go swimming while I shoot.

Don Berube · September 21st, 2003, 01:48 PM

Hello all,

In case you would like to get a chance to see the new Focus FireStore products *in person* - FOCUS ENHANCEMENTS is presenting a series of FREE seminar workshops specifically focused on the new FireStore FS-3 camera mountable DV disk recorder and DTE© Technology. You can learn how only DTE© Technology allows you to record and digitize in your NLE’s native file format: OMF files for Avid, Quicktime files for Apple FCP, or AVI type2 files for Adobe Premiere. Learn how you can improve your workflow, save time from acquisition to post production, and use the latest in professional DV disk recording technology.

LEARN HOW to SHORTEN your WORKFLOW with Focus Enhancements DTE© TECHNOLOGY:
There will be many different NLE output solutions shown at each location, including: Apple, Avid, Canopus, etc and you will get a chance to see how well the new FireStore FS-3 works with different NLE solutions such as Apple's Final Cut Pro, Pinnacle Edition, Avid DV Express, etc. I will be on hand to demonstrate the new FireStore FS-3 in tandem with DV cameras such as the Canon XL1S and Canon GL2 and other cameras such as the Panasonic AG-DVX100, JVC GY-DV5000, Sony PD-150, DSR250 and DSR300A, among others.

http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow

Chance to win a FireStore FS3 at each location!
See special dealer discounts and promotions
See the latest digital video technology
Talk to industry experts
Understand how “Direct to Edit” DTE© Technology can improve your workflow and save time and money

Table Top exhibits from participating resellers, showing a complete solution from capture (camercorder with FireStore FS-3) to editing (NLE) will be available for browsing during the day. Refreshments will be available for each session.
Presentations will be scheduled with applications on "Improving the Video Acquisition and Editing Process" using the FS-3, and solution packages from Final Cut Pro, Avid, Matrox, Canopus and DV Camcorders from Sony, Panasonic, JVC and Canon. These presentations will be 20-30 minutes in length. Other Resellers, Camcorder Reps., or NLE Reps are likely to be represented as well.
Morning Workshops will be targeted towards the Event Videographer.
Afternoon Workshops will be scheduled for the Broadcast market.
A complete schedule will be provided upon arrival.

http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow

Here is the schedule so far:
September 23: Houston, Texas
September 25: Dallas, Texas
October 8: San Francisco, CA
October 28: Miami, Florida
TBD: Burbank, CA
TBD: New York City
TBD: Chicago, Illinois
TBD: Boston, Massachusetts

REGISTER NOW for FREE:
You can register for free, simply click on the link to the right and fill out the required fields at http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow/reg.htm If you do not get a chance to register, you may still attend but the cost will be $10 at the door.

You may attend both sessions and all are invited!

Hope to see you there,

- don

Bill Ravens · September 21st, 2003, 04:08 PM

ADS has put their DV HD recorder up on their website, 20 Gig HD, direct recording from DV cam...$700. On board lithium battery charges via the firewire connector or external PS. I've ordered one to check it out.

Jon Kamps · October 1st, 2003, 02:14 AM

someone should just right some software for a laptop that does this with minimal setup. Just a nice quick record, pause, stop program and that all it does, maybe ad in a database/thumbnail system. Not sure whats required for the camera to control it but worse case senario is that you rig a small wired remote with a few buttons on it to mount on your tripod. This would be sweat because all you would need to make your own recorder would be, and nice small motherboard (like a via epia w/firewire), a nice 300+gb HD, (could be hot swapable for multiple harddrives and loading footage into the editor of choice. a 12v PS (like if you would be doing a car install), build a 12v batterypack out of 10 rechargable C's or D's. The OS could just be a striped down version of linux, setup to run without a display. Might be nice to setup a small 4x40LCD to give some read out on what the unit is upto. could proubly make it about 10inx10in (most likely smaller) at the biggest. granted it wouldn't be the smallest but would sure hold alot of video. adding it up in my head I still comeout to around 600ish. about half that going into the HD so if smaller HD was needed would be less.

Hehe this proubly would be unrealistic its just my geekish side thinking

Roze Ann · October 15th, 2003, 07:55 AM

Found a comparison chart of current Firewire storage for DV. Enjoy!

http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/matrix.htm

Bill Ravens · October 15th, 2003, 08:03 AM

this list is either out of date or definitely biased because there are several incorrect entries.

Boyd Ostroff · October 15th, 2003, 08:53 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Kamps : someone should just right some software for a laptop that does this -->>>

On the mac you can capture directly to your hard drive using a little shareware program called BTV Pro. I've been using it as an external monitor via firewire but haven't tried the recording functions. But I believe you could also capture directly in your NLE software running on your laptop (Mac or Windows).

David Mesloh · October 15th, 2003, 10:10 AM

In my original post, I lauded the abilities of the Laird system. Well I just saw the Focus Enhancements FS-3 system and ............WOW!

Compact, elegant, swapable hard drives (40 and 80 gig), multiple formats.

Price: $1999 retail, probably less on the street.

I just finished my second short film where I was the DP. I had 19 hrs of DV in my computer in less than 30 minutes. It took me 27hrs of time to capture from tape on my first film.If my time was worth a modest $50 per hour that's $1350 in lost time.

One film almost paid for the unit. I'm real happy with the Firestore product line.

Their office and manufacturing plant is a mile from my house so I could go and talk to the tech guys personally. Very helpful and friendly staff. That's important me.

Once again, highly reccommended.

Regards,

David Mesloh

Don Berube · October 15th, 2003, 10:21 AM

>>>>this list is either out of date or definitely biased because there are several incorrect entries.

- Hi Bill,

What exactly would you suggest is incorrect? I would be interested in hearing your input. If anything is indeed incorrect as you suggest, it will be duly noted and addressed as such.

Please do elaborate. If anyone else has some comments to make, please do chime in!

Thank you,

- don

Jeff Donald · October 15th, 2003, 10:26 AM

I think Bill is referring to Roze Ann's link and not this thread.

Bill Ravens · October 15th, 2003, 11:02 AM

yep...referring to the comparison list at the Firestore site. I have an ADS DV drive and it has much more capability than this list implies.

August 14th, 2003, 12:16 AM	#32
David Mesloh Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 94	Laird CapDIV The Laird Capdiv system is really a nice solution. For around 1500.00 you can capture 4.5 hours of video. I have used it in tandem with tapes. That way I have a back-up and when it comes time to transfer the footage it is basically drag and drop. It comes with a 6 hr. battery. weighs about a pound and a half on your belt. If you count the amount of hours you spend in front of your computer capturing video to the computer, this thing saves you time which = money. Besides if we can afford the toys we currently have we can always increase VISA's profits this year by having more toys.........<grin> David

August 14th, 2003, 08:58 AM	#34
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	Virginia, The short answer is "no". The video is already compressed 5:1 in-camera. By feeding the external firewire recording device an output of the firwire port from your camera, you are in essence capturing the same signal that is being recorded to tape. To clarify, there is no analog-digital-analog media convertor in these units. They are simply being fed a DV stream from your camera's firewire port. Here is a link to Focus Enhancement's FAQ .pdf's (bottom of the page, plus some streaming video. http://www.focusinfo.com/products/fi.../firestore.htm David, are you using the CapiDV system? That 6-hour battery weighs more than 1 pound, it's more like having a bag of sugar strapped around your waist. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

August 14th, 2003, 09:52 AM	#35
David Mesloh Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 94	battery Yes the battery weighs more than a pound, however the unit by itself is about 1.3 pounds . I use a power belt for my camera anyway so I usually can't go swimming while I shoot.

September 21st, 2003, 01:48 PM	#36
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	FREE Focus Enhancements FIRESTORE DTE© Seminars beginning September 23 around the US Hello all, In case you would like to get a chance to see the new Focus FireStore products in person - FOCUS ENHANCEMENTS is presenting a series of FREE seminar workshops specifically focused on the new FireStore FS-3 camera mountable DV disk recorder and DTE© Technology. You can learn how only DTE© Technology allows you to record and digitize in your NLE’s native file format: OMF files for Avid, Quicktime files for Apple FCP, or AVI type2 files for Adobe Premiere. Learn how you can improve your workflow, save time from acquisition to post production, and use the latest in professional DV disk recording technology. LEARN HOW to SHORTEN your WORKFLOW with Focus Enhancements DTE© TECHNOLOGY: There will be many different NLE output solutions shown at each location, including: *Apple, Avid, Canopus, etc* and you will get a chance to see how well the new FireStore FS-3 works with different NLE solutions such as *Apple's Final Cut Pro, Pinnacle Edition, Avid DV Express, etc.* I will be on hand to demonstrate the new FireStore FS-3 in tandem with DV cameras such as the *Canon XL1S and Canon GL2* and other cameras such as the *Panasonic AG-DVX100, JVC GY-DV5000, Sony PD-150, DSR250 and DSR300A, among others.* http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow Chance to win a FireStore FS3 at each location! See special dealer discounts and promotions See the latest digital video technology Talk to industry experts Understand how “Direct to Edit” DTE© Technology can improve your workflow and save time and money Table Top exhibits from participating resellers, showing a complete solution from capture (camercorder with FireStore FS-3) to editing (NLE) will be available for browsing during the day. Refreshments will be available for each session. Presentations will be scheduled with applications on "Improving the Video Acquisition and Editing Process" using the FS-3, and solution packages from Final Cut Pro, Avid, Matrox, Canopus and DV Camcorders from Sony, Panasonic, JVC and Canon. These presentations will be 20-30 minutes in length. Other Resellers, Camcorder Reps., or NLE Reps are likely to be represented as well. Morning Workshops will be targeted towards the Event Videographer. Afternoon Workshops will be scheduled for the Broadcast market. A complete schedule will be provided upon arrival. http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow Here is the schedule so far: September 23: Houston, Texas September 25: Dallas, Texas October 8: San Francisco, CA October 28: Miami, Florida TBD: Burbank, CA TBD: New York City TBD: Chicago, Illinois TBD: Boston, Massachusetts REGISTER NOW for FREE: You can register for free, simply click on the link to the right and fill out the required fields at http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow/reg.htm If you do not get a chance to register, you may still attend but the cost will be $10 at the door. You may attend both sessions and all are invited! Hope to see you there, - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

October 15th, 2003, 07:55 AM	#39
Roze Ann Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 116	Found a comparison chart of current Firewire storage for DV. Enjoy! http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/matrix.htm __________________ "God is good, life is hard, Heaven is sure" Camille Daily Fat Cat Media

August 11th, 2003, 03:06 PM	#31
Virginia Benedict Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Castle, NY USA Posts: 25	Don, -- “Why would you want to bypass recording to tape? Tape is cheap. In the here and now, you'll still want to record to tape at the same time when using any of these hard disk recorders, as the tape is now your master backup archive. Always have a backup! Not having a backup is simply not using good judgment, especially when you are charging for your services and you need to get it right the first time. And, if you are not currently archiving all of the footage you shoot, you should be!”-- Did not think of that! It sounds wise! However, I think it “might be” a toss up between extending camcorder life & the cost of using the HD's as archival media. The more I think about it… Since it is a fairly new technology… Yes, it is wise to have both! --"having the ability to re-purpose your footage is key."-- Why would one not be able to re-purpose with HD technology? Can you expand on "re-purpose" from your point of reference, please.

August 14th, 2003, 06:25 AM	#33
Virginia Benedict Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Castle, NY USA Posts: 25	The only concern I have is that, if my memory serves me correctly... when capturing to a hard drive it is simultaneously compressing!?!?!?! If so, I consider it a big drawback!!! All compression algorithms loose characters, spaces and/or pixels. Uncompressing does not return the original quality of the data, digital or not. I wonder, if one can turn off the compression as an option!?!?! Of course, then it becomes a footprint vs real estate issue. Hence, until the protable hardrive technology evolves...

September 21st, 2003, 04:08 PM	#37
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	ADS has put their DV HD recorder up on their website, 20 Gig HD, direct recording from DV cam...$700. On board lithium battery charges via the firewire connector or external PS. I've ordered one to check it out.

October 1st, 2003, 02:14 AM	#38
Jon Kamps Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 56	someone should just right some software for a laptop that does this with minimal setup. Just a nice quick record, pause, stop program and that all it does, maybe ad in a database/thumbnail system. Not sure whats required for the camera to control it but worse case senario is that you rig a small wired remote with a few buttons on it to mount on your tripod. This would be sweat because all you would need to make your own recorder would be, and nice small motherboard (like a via epia w/firewire), a nice 300+gb HD, (could be hot swapable for multiple harddrives and loading footage into the editor of choice. a 12v PS (like if you would be doing a car install), build a 12v batterypack out of 10 rechargable C's or D's. The OS could just be a striped down version of linux, setup to run without a display. Might be nice to setup a small 4x40LCD to give some read out on what the unit is upto. could proubly make it about 10inx10in (most likely smaller) at the biggest. granted it wouldn't be the smallest but would sure hold alot of video. adding it up in my head I still comeout to around 600ish. about half that going into the HD so if smaller HD was needed would be less. Hehe this proubly would be unrealistic its just my geekish side thinking

October 15th, 2003, 08:03 AM	#40
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	this list is either out of date or definitely biased because there are several incorrect entries.

October 15th, 2003, 08:53 AM	#41
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Kamps : someone should just right some software for a laptop that does this -->>> On the mac you can capture directly to your hard drive using a little shareware program called BTV Pro. I've been using it as an external monitor via firewire but haven't tried the recording functions. But I believe you could also capture directly in your NLE software running on your laptop (Mac or Windows).

October 15th, 2003, 10:10 AM	#42
David Mesloh Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 94	changed my mind In my original post, I lauded the abilities of the Laird system. Well I just saw the Focus Enhancements FS-3 system and ............WOW! Compact, elegant, swapable hard drives (40 and 80 gig), multiple formats. Price: $1999 retail, probably less on the street. I just finished my second short film where I was the DP. I had 19 hrs of DV in my computer in less than 30 minutes. It took me 27hrs of time to capture from tape on my first film.If my time was worth a modest $50 per hour that's $1350 in lost time. One film almost paid for the unit. I'm real happy with the Firestore product line. Their office and manufacturing plant is a mile from my house so I could go and talk to the tech guys personally. Very helpful and friendly staff. That's important me. Once again, highly reccommended. Regards, David Mesloh

October 15th, 2003, 10:21 AM	#43
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	corrections? >>>>this list is either out of date or definitely biased because there are several incorrect entries. - Hi Bill, What exactly would you suggest is incorrect? I would be interested in hearing your input. If anything is indeed incorrect as you suggest, it will be duly noted and addressed as such. Please do elaborate. If anyone else has some comments to make, please do chime in! Thank you, - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

October 15th, 2003, 10:26 AM	#44
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I think Bill is referring to Roze Ann's link and not this thread. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 15th, 2003, 11:02 AM	#45
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	yep...referring to the comparison list at the Firestore site. I have an ADS DV drive and it has much more capability than this list implies.