FCP6 Plays HDV timeline direct to DV on the fly at DVinfo.net

James Miller · May 18th, 2007, 08:31 AM

FCP6 Plays back a HDV timeline to DV on the fly, how cool is that.
Also some other formats like ProRes play out through DV on the fly.

Andy Mees · May 18th, 2007, 09:33 AM

it's not just a DV thing, James

External Video Monitoring
You can now output to external video interfaces whose settings don’t match those of your sequence. Here are some examples of some of the possibilities:

• DV or HDV sequence output to an SDI signal on a third-party interface
• An uncompressed NTSC or PAL sequence output to a DV FireWire output
• An HDV sequence output to a DV FireWire output

Sequence and output formats must have compatible frame rates. For example, sequences with a frame rate of 60, 30, or 24 fps can be output to a 30 fps device, but not to a 25 or 50 fps device. Also, when an output device does not match your sequence settings, additional real-time processing is required. This means that segments that already require a lot of real-time processing power may need to be rendered to play back.

James Miller · May 18th, 2007, 09:55 AM

Thanks, Andy - I should have read the manual. I was just happy at the time to get a SD preview back on my sony monitor. :-)

Scott Shama · May 18th, 2007, 05:00 PM

Please clarify this so I don't misunderstand... I am now in shock that this might be possible...

You can play your hdv timeline and have it go into your camera as SD and hook that up to your production monitor for color correction work (in SD)..? Just like it works for an SD timeline?

Thanks,
Scott

Tim Dashwood · May 18th, 2007, 05:18 PM

I've been waiting a long time for them to implement this. You could tell they were working on it because HDV devices showed up in the "view" list in FCP5.1.2, but were 'greyed out.'

What about latency? Have they put the interface playback in sync with the HDV stream?

Convergent-Design has a HDV to HD-SDI or Component out box called HDConnect LE. I wonder if the FCP HDV output is compatible with this box?

I've been using Convergent-Design's HDConnect MI with a Belkin DVI to HDMI adapter to get my broadcast HD-SDI signal out of a Macbook Pro and into a pro monitor. It has worked very well, but having HDV instant playback will be a bonus when on set.

James Miller · May 18th, 2007, 05:21 PM

Yep it downsizes on the fly and outputs via the DV Firewire. I had it hooked up to a Sony DVD-R recorder and burned a sample to see if it was a valid signal and it worked.
This means I don't have to get a HD montior to show my client previews on just yet.

Just to confirm HDV and other codecs play backout of the Firewire in FCP6

Tim Dashwood · May 18th, 2007, 05:43 PM

Thanks James. I think I may have misunderstood. I thought you meant that HDV material plays out through firewire to a HDV camera or deck. I didn't realize you were downconverting to DV.

That is also very cool, but I'm really hoping selection of HDV devices in external view is now available.

Andy Mees · May 18th, 2007, 09:44 PM

sorry Tim but that is not possible nor is it ever likely to be so.

HDV is a complex MPEG2 Long GOP codec ... to render a timeline of multiple cuts and clips to an bidirectional predictive codec in software in realtime is impossible with todays desktop computing power.

so just to clarify, depending on your computers processing power (and RAM) and/or any your other third party I/O devices you may have installed, you are able to select an valid output path/format that is not native to your sequence format, and view your timeline via that path.

so HDV timeline monitoring as a (downconverted) DV stream via built-in firewire is one possible option. but monitoring any codec (including native HDV) as an HDV stream is not an option.

Scott Shama · May 18th, 2007, 11:39 PM

Ok..this is important...does the hdv to sd convert work in Color? Seems like that would be relatively important...

Thanks,
Scott

Steve Benner · May 19th, 2007, 05:47 AM

Something interesting, when I first opened up FCP, it asked for my project setup. Under, HDV- there were two 720/24P options, one was 720/24P, the other was JVC720/24P (not that anyone else makes 720/24P HDV but JVC). I think the presets for capture were different. I am going to look at it again. Maybe the capture issue was worked out (I use a DR-HD100, so I wouldn't know yet).

Andy Mees · May 19th, 2007, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Shama

Ok..this is important...does the hdv to sd convert work in Color? Seems like that would be relatively important...

Thanks,
Scott

Scott, i don't have it yet so can't tell you for sure... but common sense suggests that the answer is No.

Features that are part of FCP are not automatically integrated into any other app that forms a part of the FCS suite. In Color the processing power is liely being diverted elsewhere.

To be fair, we also need to consider that Color is a high end color grading software. Any color grading based on eyeing a downconverted interpretation of your HDV timeline would totally defeat the purpose of the software. To grade HD source footage you need a professional HD monitor ... or I dare say we can get away using an MXO to feed a properly calibrated Apple 23" cinema display. Alteranively, it will likely work as you wish using an I/O card as a medium to downconvert the output to an SD monitor.

Bottom line. Whilst Apple provide this high end software at a give away price (to lure professional users as well as those with aspirations) respectfully, if one wants to use it as it is intended, then one needs to get the hardware to go with it.

Scott Shama · May 19th, 2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Mees

To be fair, we also need to consider that Color is a high end color grading software. Any color grading based on eyeing a downconverted interpretation of your HDV timeline would totally defeat the purpose of the software.

Sorry, but I completely disagree...if your intent is to deliver an SD DVD then being able to CC your HDV timeline for proper SD output is essential.

And the hardware that goes with it should just be my firewire out to my cam then out s-video or component out to my SD monitor.....

Scott

Andy Mees · May 19th, 2007, 08:55 PM

sorry Scott. we were at crossed purposed there. my assumption was that you wanted to grade your HD masterpiece for HD distribution.

yes, for SD distribution you would ideally want to grade an SD downcoversion

i'm afraid you'll still be out of luck though. what you have to appreciate (and what few do) is the professional nature of Color. it is quite simply not intended (at this time) for low-end hardware. I would expect that a future revision will allow it, bringing it more in line with Apple's policy of making the tools more accesible to all users.

but as it stands, for external monitoring, Color supports only a professional broadcast interface ... that means you need some kind of third party I/O hardware. (what they refer to as a "broadcast video interface") Color does not support external monitoring via firewire (or even digital cinema display)

Scott Shama · May 19th, 2007, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Mees

but as it stands, for external monitoring, Color supports only a professional broadcast interface ... that means you need some kind of third party I/O hardware. (what they refer to as a "broadcast video interface") Color does not support external monitoring via firewire (or even digital cinema display)

That sucks....well, at least the BM intensity Pro is only $350 for real time convert from hdv to sd...

Scott

Chad Terpstra · May 25th, 2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Mees

Color does not support external monitoring via firewire (or even digital cinema display)

This thread has both fulfilled and destroyed my dreams for color correction in FCS2. Finally I'll now be able to play back HD sequences over Firewire for live SD monitoring... but the new and improved toolset for color correction won't allow it... I love precise color correction but it's looking more and more like I'm going to have to break down and get the $$$.proper hardware.$$$ for it. Back to the dreaming board I guess.

May 18th, 2007, 08:31 AM	#1
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	FCP6 Plays HDV timeline direct to DV on the fly FCP6 Plays back a HDV timeline to DV on the fly, how cool is that. Also some other formats like ProRes play out through DV on the fly. Last edited by James Miller; May 18th, 2007 at 08:34 AM. Reason: Adding

May 18th, 2007, 05:18 PM	#5
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	I've been waiting a long time for them to implement this. You could tell they were working on it because HDV devices showed up in the "view" list in FCP5.1.2, but were 'greyed out.' What about latency? Have they put the interface playback in sync with the HDV stream? Convergent-Design has a HDV to HD-SDI or Component out box called HDConnect LE. I wonder if the FCP HDV output is compatible with this box? I've been using Convergent-Design's HDConnect MI with a Belkin DVI to HDMI adapter to get my broadcast HD-SDI signal out of a Macbook Pro and into a pro monitor. It has worked very well, but having HDV instant playback will be a bonus when on set. __________________ Tim Dashwood

May 18th, 2007, 05:43 PM	#7
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Thanks James. I think I may have misunderstood. I thought you meant that HDV material plays out through firewire to a HDV camera or deck. I didn't realize you were downconverting to DV. That is also very cool, but I'm really hoping selection of HDV devices in external view is now available. __________________ Tim Dashwood

May 18th, 2007, 09:33 AM	#2
Andy Mees Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 645	it's not just a DV thing, James External Video Monitoring You can now output to external video interfaces whose settings don’t match those of your sequence. Here are some examples of some of the possibilities: • DV or HDV sequence output to an SDI signal on a third-party interface • An uncompressed NTSC or PAL sequence output to a DV FireWire output • An HDV sequence output to a DV FireWire output Sequence and output formats must have compatible frame rates. For example, sequences with a frame rate of 60, 30, or 24 fps can be output to a 30 fps device, but not to a 25 or 50 fps device. Also, when an output device does not match your sequence settings, additional real-time processing is required. This means that segments that already require a lot of real-time processing power may need to be rendered to play back.

May 18th, 2007, 09:55 AM	#3
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	Thanks, Andy - I should have read the manual. I was just happy at the time to get a SD preview back on my sony monitor. :-)

May 18th, 2007, 05:00 PM	#4
Scott Shama Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 399	Please clarify this so I don't misunderstand... I am now in shock that this might be possible... You can play your hdv timeline and have it go into your camera as SD and hook that up to your production monitor for color correction work (in SD)..? Just like it works for an SD timeline? Thanks, Scott

May 18th, 2007, 05:21 PM	#6
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	Yep it downsizes on the fly and outputs via the DV Firewire. I had it hooked up to a Sony DVD-R recorder and burned a sample to see if it was a valid signal and it worked. This means I don't have to get a HD montior to show my client previews on just yet. Just to confirm HDV and other codecs play backout of the Firewire in FCP6

May 18th, 2007, 09:44 PM	#8
Andy Mees Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 645	sorry Tim but that is not possible nor is it ever likely to be so. HDV is a complex MPEG2 Long GOP codec ... to render a timeline of multiple cuts and clips to an bidirectional predictive codec in software in realtime is impossible with todays desktop computing power. so just to clarify, depending on your computers processing power (and RAM) and/or any your other third party I/O devices you may have installed, you are able to select an valid output path/format that is not native to your sequence format, and view your timeline via that path. so HDV timeline monitoring as a (downconverted) DV stream via built-in firewire is one possible option. but monitoring any codec (including native HDV) as an HDV stream is not an option.

May 18th, 2007, 11:39 PM	#9
Scott Shama Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 399	Ok..this is important...does the hdv to sd convert work in Color? Seems like that would be relatively important... Thanks, Scott

May 19th, 2007, 05:47 AM	#10
Steve Benner Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 590	Something interesting, when I first opened up FCP, it asked for my project setup. Under, HDV- there were two 720/24P options, one was 720/24P, the other was JVC720/24P (not that anyone else makes 720/24P HDV but JVC). I think the presets for capture were different. I am going to look at it again. Maybe the capture issue was worked out (I use a DR-HD100, so I wouldn't know yet).

May 19th, 2007, 08:55 PM	#13
Andy Mees Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 645	sorry Scott. we were at crossed purposed there. my assumption was that you wanted to grade your HD masterpiece for HD distribution. yes, for SD distribution you would ideally want to grade an SD downcoversion i'm afraid you'll still be out of luck though. what you have to appreciate (and what few do) is the professional nature of Color. it is quite simply not intended (at this time) for low-end hardware. I would expect that a future revision will allow it, bringing it more in line with Apple's policy of making the tools more accesible to all users. but as it stands, for external monitoring, Color supports only a professional broadcast interface ... that means you need some kind of third party I/O hardware. (what they refer to as a "broadcast video interface") Color does not support external monitoring via firewire (or even digital cinema display)