Thinking of turning off ABORT if dropped frames

Boyd Ostroff · May 12th, 2007, 05:17 PM

Eric, all of the G4 and G5 Macs (laptops, towers, etc) only have a single firewire bus inside. FW800 (if available) shares the same bus with FW400. If you have a laptop with a PC card slot or tower with PCI slots you can add a firewire card to increase throughput.

I'm not positive, but I think the new Intel Macs are like this as well.

Eric Shepherd · May 12th, 2007, 05:20 PM

How would they share a bus at different speeds? There must be 2 separate controllers to achieve this, no? Maybe one chip can do it, but 2 buses to get separate speeds.

Boyd Ostroff · May 12th, 2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Shepherd

How would they share a bus at different speeds?

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...nkElementID_21

Quote:

The Mac Pro provides two FireWire 800 IEEE 1394b ports and two FireWire 400 IEEE 1394a ports. The four FireWire ports are on the same FireWire bus

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...TP40003893-SW1

Quote:

FireWire 800 is backward-compatible with FireWire 400. When a FireWire 800 device is properly connected to a FireWire 800 port on a Macintosh computer, the two communicate using 1394b protocols at 1394b speeds. When a FireWire 400 device is connected to that same port, the port conforms to 1394a specifications to communicate with that device. FireWire 800 ports with this capability are commonly known as bilingual.

Eric Shepherd · May 12th, 2007, 11:03 PM

Interesting. They don't really explain it in technical terms, but I think it might be a 3 port FW800 hub, with basically 2 FW400 adapters, so you get 3 ports from the motherboard directly that way, all running on one bus.

Theodore McNeil · May 13th, 2007, 10:21 AM

The uncontrollable device setting is almost exactly what is says. It means the device is uncontrollable by FCP. The you cannot shuttle through the footage in FCP, you have to play or scan through the tape with the camera.

The other situation you would used this method is if you wanted record to tape and capture in FCP simultaneously. I do this all the time with my new (old) G4 powerbook and a Z1U. I down convert live to DV into FCP while simultaneously recording HDV to tape for archiving and back up.

Kevin Carter · May 13th, 2007, 01:12 PM

Thanks Theo, and would be curious if you guys have not seen this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...414#post678414

on what you use as alternates to capturing other than FCP

Kevin Carter · May 16th, 2007, 10:02 AM

Theo: are you saying that you simutaneously back up a mini DV to another camcorder or deck, and capture to computer hard drive? this would be great, and save me another pass, as I want to back up tape to tape, and also to hard drive. But how would it work? There is only one FW port out of my camcorder and it either has to be 4 pin to 4 pin going to other camcorder or 4 pin to 6 pin going to Computer no?

Eric Shepherd · May 16th, 2007, 12:47 PM

You could probably do that with a firewire hub, I would think. They're not widely popular, but they do exist. :)

Kevin Carter · May 17th, 2007, 11:13 AM

This issue Eric, is not in ports, I'm saying there is only one out port of camera.

Eric Shepherd · May 17th, 2007, 11:17 AM

I understand the issue. If you plugged 2 cameras into a firewire hub, one could be playing back and the other recording. At the same time, the hard drive in the computer (or in the hub) would be capturing.

The port on the camera is an i/o, not just an out, but you prolly knew that. :)

Eric

Kevin Carter · May 17th, 2007, 06:32 PM

Hard to understand that. yes know port out of camcorder is both in and out. so?
There is only one -- so how could I record from camcorder to another deck and computer at same time? thanks!

Eric Shepherd · May 17th, 2007, 11:34 PM

Right, it's a bidirectional port. That's how you're able to control the camera's playback via firewire while it's playing. The computer sends signals to the camera and tells it where to move, and the camera sends back a picture, sound and position info.

The Firewire hub works the same way a USB hub works. Or a power strip for plugging electrical stuff into, for that matter. You plug in one device (the hub) and get multiple places to plug in. If your computer has multiple firewire ports, that would maybe work too.

You know, now that I think about this, the physical connection is easy, it's making the gear behave accordingly that may be difficult. With a hub, the recording camera MAY see the video stream and record it. But it may send it into the computer without going to the other ports in the hub, and then you need to tell the computer to record as well as repeat the signal, and I'm not sure if that's possible or not. It's just a software thing, but I don't know if such a program exists.

But now you know that a firewire is just like a usb hub, or a power strip. They're just a rare piece of equipment, but they're out there and they're not very expensive..

Eric

Pete Cofrancesco · May 18th, 2007, 12:02 AM

i haven't read through the entire thread, but have you tried to capture directly from a live camera? if you still get the problem then you can eliminate timecode/tape capture issues as the culprit. and if you try capturing on another system that would also help narrow down things.

I've found its always best to leave space at the beginning of the tape, video heads need a few seconds to get the tape up to speed to start recording properly. Make sure your shooting in 16 bit audio, if you shot in 12 and trying to capture in 16 that can cause problems. Fragmented drive can cause problems. Its also best to turn off hard drive power saver/sleep modes, ie it takes a few seconds to wake up the drive and that would interfere with the beginning of a capture.

Eric Shepherd · May 18th, 2007, 12:06 AM

And Kevin, Theo was referring to recording live on location and recording into the camera's tape and the laptop at the same time. I do that as well, works great. No more capturing unless something happens with the computer, then you have a tape backup already in place. :)

Kevin Carter · May 18th, 2007, 12:52 PM

Eric: well I see where you are going: I plug camcorder into a hub and capture to comupter, then I take cord from hub and put it into my second camroder to record at same time? has anyone done this?

Pete: I honestly have not made sure I was 10 seconds into the tape before capturing, so I 'll try remember that, but not sure that was the issue.

ERic: ok, did not know thats what you meant. Too late for that, but good info to know -- capture on the shoot.

May 12th, 2007, 05:17 PM	#31
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Eric, all of the G4 and G5 Macs (laptops, towers, etc) only have a single firewire bus inside. FW800 (if available) shares the same bus with FW400. If you have a laptop with a PC card slot or tower with PCI slots you can add a firewire card to increase throughput. I'm not positive, but I think the new Intel Macs are like this as well.

May 12th, 2007, 05:20 PM	#32
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	How would they share a bus at different speeds? There must be 2 separate controllers to achieve this, no? Maybe one chip can do it, but 2 buses to get separate speeds.

May 12th, 2007, 11:03 PM	#34
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	Interesting. They don't really explain it in technical terms, but I think it might be a 3 port FW800 hub, with basically 2 FW400 adapters, so you get 3 ports from the motherboard directly that way, all running on one bus.

May 13th, 2007, 10:21 AM	#35
Theodore McNeil Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Centreville, Maryland Posts: 258	The uncontrollable device setting is almost exactly what is says. It means the device is uncontrollable by FCP. The you cannot shuttle through the footage in FCP, you have to play or scan through the tape with the camera. The other situation you would used this method is if you wanted record to tape and capture in FCP simultaneously. I do this all the time with my new (old) G4 powerbook and a Z1U. I down convert live to DV into FCP while simultaneously recording HDV to tape for archiving and back up.

May 13th, 2007, 01:12 PM	#36
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	Thanks Theo, and would be curious if you guys have not seen this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...414#post678414 on what you use as alternates to capturing other than FCP

May 16th, 2007, 10:02 AM	#37
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	Theo: are you saying that you simutaneously back up a mini DV to another camcorder or deck, and capture to computer hard drive? this would be great, and save me another pass, as I want to back up tape to tape, and also to hard drive. But how would it work? There is only one FW port out of my camcorder and it either has to be 4 pin to 4 pin going to other camcorder or 4 pin to 6 pin going to Computer no?

May 16th, 2007, 12:47 PM	#38
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	You could probably do that with a firewire hub, I would think. They're not widely popular, but they do exist. :)

May 17th, 2007, 11:13 AM	#39
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	This issue Eric, is not in ports, I'm saying there is only one out port of camera.

May 17th, 2007, 11:17 AM	#40
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	I understand the issue. If you plugged 2 cameras into a firewire hub, one could be playing back and the other recording. At the same time, the hard drive in the computer (or in the hub) would be capturing. The port on the camera is an i/o, not just an out, but you prolly knew that. :) Eric

May 17th, 2007, 06:32 PM	#41
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	Hard to understand that. yes know port out of camcorder is both in and out. so? There is only one -- so how could I record from camcorder to another deck and computer at same time? thanks!

May 17th, 2007, 11:34 PM	#42
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	Right, it's a bidirectional port. That's how you're able to control the camera's playback via firewire while it's playing. The computer sends signals to the camera and tells it where to move, and the camera sends back a picture, sound and position info. The Firewire hub works the same way a USB hub works. Or a power strip for plugging electrical stuff into, for that matter. You plug in one device (the hub) and get multiple places to plug in. If your computer has multiple firewire ports, that would maybe work too. You know, now that I think about this, the physical connection is easy, it's making the gear behave accordingly that may be difficult. With a hub, the recording camera MAY see the video stream and record it. But it may send it into the computer without going to the other ports in the hub, and then you need to tell the computer to record as well as repeat the signal, and I'm not sure if that's possible or not. It's just a software thing, but I don't know if such a program exists. But now you know that a firewire is just like a usb hub, or a power strip. They're just a rare piece of equipment, but they're out there and they're not very expensive.. Eric

May 18th, 2007, 12:02 AM	#43
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	i haven't read through the entire thread, but have you tried to capture directly from a live camera? if you still get the problem then you can eliminate timecode/tape capture issues as the culprit. and if you try capturing on another system that would also help narrow down things. I've found its always best to leave space at the beginning of the tape, video heads need a few seconds to get the tape up to speed to start recording properly. Make sure your shooting in 16 bit audio, if you shot in 12 and trying to capture in 16 that can cause problems. Fragmented drive can cause problems. Its also best to turn off hard drive power saver/sleep modes, ie it takes a few seconds to wake up the drive and that would interfere with the beginning of a capture.

May 18th, 2007, 12:06 AM	#44
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	And Kevin, Theo was referring to recording live on location and recording into the camera's tape and the laptop at the same time. I do that as well, works great. No more capturing unless something happens with the computer, then you have a tape backup already in place. :)

May 18th, 2007, 12:52 PM	#45
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	Eric: well I see where you are going: I plug camcorder into a hub and capture to comupter, then I take cord from hub and put it into my second camroder to record at same time? has anyone done this? Pete: I honestly have not made sure I was 10 seconds into the tape before capturing, so I 'll try remember that, but not sure that was the issue. ERic: ok, did not know thats what you meant. Too late for that, but good info to know -- capture on the shoot.