HV20 and 24p into FCP at DVinfo.net

Ryan Flesher · March 27th, 2007, 10:40 AM

Got my HV20 and it is nice. I shot some stuff in 24p HDV mode and then tried to capture into a Final Cut Pro (5.1.4) 24p timeline. No dice. It always captures as 60i. I want to add the HV20 24p footage to the footage I shot with my XH-A1 at 24f.
I used the HDV 1080/24p preset and it recognized the camera fine and captured fine. But the file is captured as 1080/60i, not 1080/24p.
Any tricks to do this or ideas if this is possible?
Thanks,
Ryan

Austin Meyers · March 27th, 2007, 10:51 AM

you can't capture it as 24fps. once captured as 60i you have to remove the pulldown via cinema tools or another app.

Wes Vasher · March 27th, 2007, 11:09 AM

I wonder what the advantage would be in removing the pulldown if say I was simply editing a video. I'll be removing pulldown for FX/Composting work but if I was simply cutting a video together would I ever need to remove the pulldown? Will transitions or other effects in the NLE come out looking strange?

Ryan Flesher · March 27th, 2007, 11:09 AM

Thanks!
That sucks. Is that a Canon issue or a FCP issue (like the new FCP may be able to capture it as 24p)?
Any suggestions on workflow to convert to 24p so I can use it in an existing 24p timeline.
RYan

Austin Meyers · March 28th, 2007, 08:34 AM

i believe it's a canon issue. until cinema tools can guess the cadence like after effects you'll have to do it by hand.

as far as workflow, you can edit the front of the movies in quicktime to make the cadence start with 2 p frames and then, now that they are all the same cadence you can batch proccess them. or you can just manually find the cadence and use the appropriate setting.

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv2...0READ%20ME.rtf

once cinema tools process them you just drag them back into fcp and viola you've got ture 24p (23.89) clips that you can edit in a regular 1080p24 timeline with a1 stuff etc.

Ryan Flesher · March 28th, 2007, 10:54 AM

I'm kinda getting it, but I'm kinda a newbie when it comes to Cinema Tools. I find the cadence in FCP using the arrow keys, I understand. How do I tell a p vs an i frame (one will be jagged I guess).
What is the workflow for After Effects? I just got that program, maybe it's easier in there?
Thanks for the help.
RYan

Austin Meyers · March 28th, 2007, 11:09 AM

yeah the interlaced frames will be very apparent when the clip is blown up to 100%

i'm not sure what the workflow is with AE, i've never used it, i just saw some other people that were having success with it in some other threads.

Ryan Flesher · March 28th, 2007, 11:16 AM

Do you have to capture with Apple Int. Codec to get cinema tools to work? When I capture with the HDV1080/60i setting, Cinema Tools gives an error--"This clip has temporal compression."
Ryan

Austin Meyers · March 28th, 2007, 11:25 AM

that's correct, it has to be a codec that doesn't use interframe compression (b-frames) ie. mpeg 2, h264 and many others, AIC encodes each frame same as dv/dvpro. i capture to aic in real time. what setup do you have? i'm wondering what older systems do, if it lags or if they are handling it real time as well?

Ryan Flesher · March 28th, 2007, 12:10 PM

I have a PowerMac dual 2.5ghz with 4 GB of RAM. It runs nice usually.
It can capture in real time with AIC, no prob.
Ryan

Ryan Flesher · March 28th, 2007, 12:50 PM

Thanks to you I was able to get it to work great.
The only remaining point I need to clarify:
I guess I must use the HDV AIC to capture all my footage, even the XH-a1 (instead of the HDV 1080/24p) that way all things work in the same timeline without rendering.
There is not a Sequence preset for the AIC in 1080/24p, just 50,60 and 720/30p. But you can change the sequence setting after the fact to AIC.
Does this make any sense?
Ryan

Ryan Flesher · March 28th, 2007, 01:14 PM

I guess you have to render at least on of the clips to get them to work together on the same timeline.
If you capture the 24f stuff from the XH-A1 with AIC it becomes 29.97 fps.
So that doesn't work.
If you capture the 24f stuff with the 1080/24p preset it captures at 24f and works well.
So I guess the only way to do it is bring in the reverse tele 24p footage from the HV20 into the 1080/24p timeline and render that footage.
Ryan

Barlow Elton · March 28th, 2007, 01:37 PM

You have to remove pulldown to properly work with 24F material in a 1080 24p timeline.

You could always edit in a 60i timeline as long as you made your edits match a predictable cadence and then export as 60i--THEN perform pulldown extraction, but I'm not sure how transitions would play out. This would only work for HV20 24p. You'd have to add pulldown to 24F material in a 60i timeline.

Barlow Elton · March 28th, 2007, 01:39 PM

You have to remove pulldown to HV20 24p in order to properly integrate with 24F material in a HDV 1080 24p timeline.

You could always edit HV20 24p in a 60i timeline as long as you made your edits match a predictable cadence and then export as 60i--THEN perform pulldown extraction, but I'm not sure how transitions would play out. This would only work for HV20 24p. You'd have to add pulldown to 24F material in a 60i timeline.

Rather complicated. :)

Edit: Sorry for the double post. The site's slow right now and I was trying to correct the post.

Ryan Flesher · March 28th, 2007, 02:34 PM

I have removed the pulldown on the 24p stuff from the HV20 (using Cinema Tools), but it still doesn't work in a 1080/24p timeline without rendering.
Once I render it cuts great with the 24f footage.
I was just hoping to avoid rendering.

March 27th, 2007, 10:40 AM	#1
Ryan Flesher Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: United States Posts: 56	HV20 and 24p into FCP Got my HV20 and it is nice. I shot some stuff in 24p HDV mode and then tried to capture into a Final Cut Pro (5.1.4) 24p timeline. No dice. It always captures as 60i. I want to add the HV20 24p footage to the footage I shot with my XH-A1 at 24f. I used the HDV 1080/24p preset and it recognized the camera fine and captured fine. But the file is captured as 1080/60i, not 1080/24p. Any tricks to do this or ideas if this is possible? Thanks, Ryan

March 27th, 2007, 10:51 AM	#2
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	24p you can't capture it as 24fps. once captured as 60i you have to remove the pulldown via cinema tools or another app. __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 28th, 2007, 08:34 AM	#5
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	24p i believe it's a canon issue. until cinema tools can guess the cadence like after effects you'll have to do it by hand. as far as workflow, you can edit the front of the movies in quicktime to make the cadence start with 2 p frames and then, now that they are all the same cadence you can batch proccess them. or you can just manually find the cadence and use the appropriate setting. http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv2...0READ%20ME.rtf once cinema tools process them you just drag them back into fcp and viola you've got ture 24p (23.89) clips that you can edit in a regular 1080p24 timeline with a1 stuff etc. __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 28th, 2007, 11:09 AM	#7
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	24p yeah the interlaced frames will be very apparent when the clip is blown up to 100% i'm not sure what the workflow is with AE, i've never used it, i just saw some other people that were having success with it in some other threads. __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 28th, 2007, 11:25 AM	#9
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	24p that's correct, it has to be a codec that doesn't use interframe compression (b-frames) ie. mpeg 2, h264 and many others, AIC encodes each frame same as dv/dvpro. i capture to aic in real time. what setup do you have? i'm wondering what older systems do, if it lags or if they are handling it real time as well? __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 27th, 2007, 11:09 AM	#3
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	I wonder what the advantage would be in removing the pulldown if say I was simply editing a video. I'll be removing pulldown for FX/Composting work but if I was simply cutting a video together would I ever need to remove the pulldown? Will transitions or other effects in the NLE come out looking strange?

March 28th, 2007, 10:54 AM	#6
Ryan Flesher Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: United States Posts: 56	I'm kinda getting it, but I'm kinda a newbie when it comes to Cinema Tools. I find the cadence in FCP using the arrow keys, I understand. How do I tell a p vs an i frame (one will be jagged I guess). What is the workflow for After Effects? I just got that program, maybe it's easier in there? Thanks for the help. RYan

March 28th, 2007, 11:16 AM	#8
Ryan Flesher Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: United States Posts: 56	Do you have to capture with Apple Int. Codec to get cinema tools to work? When I capture with the HDV1080/60i setting, Cinema Tools gives an error--"This clip has temporal compression." Ryan

March 28th, 2007, 12:10 PM	#10
Ryan Flesher Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: United States Posts: 56	I have a PowerMac dual 2.5ghz with 4 GB of RAM. It runs nice usually. It can capture in real time with AIC, no prob. Ryan

March 28th, 2007, 12:50 PM	#11
Ryan Flesher Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: United States Posts: 56	I got it Thanks to you I was able to get it to work great. The only remaining point I need to clarify: I guess I must use the HDV AIC to capture all my footage, even the XH-a1 (instead of the HDV 1080/24p) that way all things work in the same timeline without rendering. There is not a Sequence preset for the AIC in 1080/24p, just 50,60 and 720/30p. But you can change the sequence setting after the fact to AIC. Does this make any sense? Ryan

March 28th, 2007, 01:14 PM	#12
Ryan Flesher Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: United States Posts: 56	No luck I guess you have to render at least on of the clips to get them to work together on the same timeline. If you capture the 24f stuff from the XH-A1 with AIC it becomes 29.97 fps. So that doesn't work. If you capture the 24f stuff with the 1080/24p preset it captures at 24f and works well. So I guess the only way to do it is bring in the reverse tele 24p footage from the HV20 into the 1080/24p timeline and render that footage. Ryan

March 28th, 2007, 01:37 PM	#13
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	You have to remove pulldown to properly work with 24F material in a 1080 24p timeline. You could always edit in a 60i timeline as long as you made your edits match a predictable cadence and then export as 60i--THEN perform pulldown extraction, but I'm not sure how transitions would play out. This would only work for HV20 24p. You'd have to add pulldown to 24F material in a 60i timeline.

March 28th, 2007, 01:39 PM	#14
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	You have to remove pulldown to HV20 24p in order to properly integrate with 24F material in a HDV 1080 24p timeline. You could always edit HV20 24p in a 60i timeline as long as you made your edits match a predictable cadence and then export as 60i--THEN perform pulldown extraction, but I'm not sure how transitions would play out. This would only work for HV20 24p. You'd have to add pulldown to 24F material in a 60i timeline. Rather complicated. :) Edit: Sorry for the double post. The site's slow right now and I was trying to correct the post.

March 28th, 2007, 02:34 PM	#15
Ryan Flesher Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: United States Posts: 56	I have removed the pulldown on the 24p stuff from the HV20 (using Cinema Tools), but it still doesn't work in a 1080/24p timeline without rendering. Once I render it cuts great with the 24f footage. I was just hoping to avoid rendering.