25F into Final Cut Pro at DVinfo.net

Ian Henderson · March 9th, 2007, 01:27 AM

I've just bought an A1 (PAL) and I've got a couple of questions about getting footage shot at 25F on the camera into FCP:

1. If I use the "HDV - 1080p25" Easy Setup option am I on the right track?

2. Since the camera is storing the 25F footage in 50i on the camera, what are the implications of using the 1080i50 preset? When I use the 1080i50 preset the footage also comes in fine, and there's no discernable difference in the viewer.

3. When 25fps progressive footage is shown on a normal SD-TV, what is actually happening - are the extra interlaced fields being created by the camera, and supplied through the component out.

Still a little confused about progressive and interlaced modes - I understand the principles, but I'm not quite getting how it works out in the real world...

Alex Leith · March 9th, 2007, 02:07 AM

HDV 1080p25 is exactly the right setup for ingesting and working with 25F from the A1

The A1 doesn't actually store 25F into 50i. The frames are discreet and not separated across two fields. In practice, it won't make any difference if the 1080i50 setup works. Personally I've never tried it.

When 25p is shown on SD the frames are split across two fields. It's actually denoted as 25psf (progressive segmented frames).

Because the two fields are identical 25psf and 25p (and 25F) look the same.

Jess Charlton · March 11th, 2007, 01:41 AM

This is a great source of confusion for me. I would be very grateful if someone could explain.

What exactly is the difference between 25f and 25p?

Is 25f basically the same as 25p? (with the exception that 25f applies to HDV and 25p applies to DV)

Does the 25f mode produce "progressive scan" images equivalent to 25p?

Martin Saxer · March 11th, 2007, 05:01 AM

There is a long, confusing, highly inspiring and informative thread over at the V1/FX7 board:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=86781

The A1 doesn't read out the 3 CCDs progressively. It generates progressive frames from interlaced read-outs. This is some sort of "de-interlacing", but most people (Steve Mullen is more sceptical) seem to agree that it is far better than simple line-doubling and the vertical resolution loss is around 10%. Because the CCD's are not progressive Canon doesn't call it P but F instead. Furthermore Canon chose to store its 24F/25F format in a non-standard way on HDV tapes (as entire frames and not as psf, see below). That's why you can't use non-Canon equipment to read 24/25p tapes.

Sony chose another approach. Their CMOS-chips are fast enough for real progressive output. That's why they calll it 24p/25p. They comply with the standard HDV spec and write so-called 25psf (progressive segmented frames) to tape: the progressive frames are segmented into two fields before output. The debate over at the other forum (with 240 and something posts) is about a line-flicker (especially with 25p) that the V1 footage in combination with certain monitor setups produces. The problem seems to be related to high sharpness settings and Sony has appearently tried to fix it in (several?) firmware upgrades for the V1E (25p). Oppinions vary if it is really fixed.

The Canon A1 24f/25f footage doesn't seem to be affected by the line-flicker issue (maybe just because V-Res is not a high as with the Sony). But still: many of the issues discussed in that thread are actually relevant for all HDV p or f acquisition.
Bottomline: if you start a project with one of the new progressive HDV cameras, test your workflow. If HD DVD or BR is going to be at the end of the chain, give a 720p (downconverted from 1080@24/25 p/f/whatever) or 1080i a second thought. If it is a blow-up you are heading for choose a company now and discuss the workflow with them.

There are always solutions to problems like this but I have a feeling that these 24/25 p/f/pfs issues are going to haunt us for a while.

Martin

Vincent Wong Yoon Wei · March 11th, 2007, 11:43 AM

I can still see people getting confused and the same people are confusing more people about the F mode.

The F mode is same as P mode plain and simple. Canon should have just called it P and leave it at that. Canon's attempt at being honest just backfired here.

There is no de-interlacing going on at all. Canon somehow managed to re-clock the interlaced chips to read progressively (or something like that).

The output is true progressive video. No deinterlacing or field doubling voodoo going on.

Martin Saxer · March 11th, 2007, 03:36 PM

The output is, the CCDs are not. What ever happens in between is good enough not to worry too much, I agree. Let's stop the confusion. It looks good (from what I have seen) and that's all that counts.

So the rest maybe OT:
Most of us want real 1080@24/25p on 1080p projectors or real 1080p Screens (or 35mm film) in the end. But it remains to be seen whether 1080@25/25p/f is really the best option as acquisition format with a HDV camera when the goal is to deliver HD content to a huge variety of "HD ready" TV-sets. The HD spec is 720p/1080i isn't it? (Please correct me). If you can't go 50/60p then you might be happier with 50/60i in the end. Your oppinions?
Has anybody here already gone through the whole process of HDV acquisition with a 24/25f Canon H1/A1/G1, HD Broadcast, a (pioneer) HD DVD and possibly a transfer to 35mm for theatrical release? I am longing for experienced informed advice on these matters.

Jess Charlton · March 12th, 2007, 03:39 PM

Thank you Martin and Vincent for putting an end to my confusion.
After reading the different views on the subject, I realise it's much more complex than I had thought.

I agree it's not worth worrying about how the CCD's or the DIGIC DV II processor do their thing. If camera can output true progressive video and it looks good, that seems to be what matters.

March 9th, 2007, 01:27 AM	#1
Ian Henderson New Boot Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 19	25F into Final Cut Pro I've just bought an A1 (PAL) and I've got a couple of questions about getting footage shot at 25F on the camera into FCP: 1. If I use the "HDV - 1080p25" Easy Setup option am I on the right track? 2. Since the camera is storing the 25F footage in 50i on the camera, what are the implications of using the 1080i50 preset? When I use the 1080i50 preset the footage also comes in fine, and there's no discernable difference in the viewer. 3. When 25fps progressive footage is shown on a normal SD-TV, what is actually happening - are the extra interlaced fields being created by the camera, and supplied through the component out. Still a little confused about progressive and interlaced modes - I understand the principles, but I'm not quite getting how it works out in the real world...

March 9th, 2007, 02:07 AM	#2
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	HDV 1080p25 is exactly the right setup for ingesting and working with 25F from the A1 The A1 doesn't actually store 25F into 50i. The frames are discreet and not separated across two fields. In practice, it won't make any difference if the 1080i50 setup works. Personally I've never tried it. When 25p is shown on SD the frames are split across two fields. It's actually denoted as 25psf (progressive segmented frames). Because the two fields are identical 25psf and 25p (and 25F) look the same. __________________ Alex

March 11th, 2007, 05:01 AM	#4
Martin Saxer Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oxford, UK (until 2008: Lhasa, Tibetan Autonomous Region) Posts: 65	There is a long, confusing, highly inspiring and informative thread over at the V1/FX7 board: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=86781 The A1 doesn't read out the 3 CCDs progressively. It generates progressive frames from interlaced read-outs. This is some sort of "de-interlacing", but most people (Steve Mullen is more sceptical) seem to agree that it is far better than simple line-doubling and the vertical resolution loss is around 10%. Because the CCD's are not progressive Canon doesn't call it P but F instead. Furthermore Canon chose to store its 24F/25F format in a non-standard way on HDV tapes (as entire frames and not as psf, see below). That's why you can't use non-Canon equipment to read 24/25p tapes. Sony chose another approach. Their CMOS-chips are fast enough for real progressive output. That's why they calll it 24p/25p. They comply with the standard HDV spec and write so-called 25psf (progressive segmented frames) to tape: the progressive frames are segmented into two fields before output. The debate over at the other forum (with 240 and something posts) is about a line-flicker (especially with 25p) that the V1 footage in combination with certain monitor setups produces. The problem seems to be related to high sharpness settings and Sony has appearently tried to fix it in (several?) firmware upgrades for the V1E (25p). Oppinions vary if it is really fixed. The Canon A1 24f/25f footage doesn't seem to be affected by the line-flicker issue (maybe just because V-Res is not a high as with the Sony). But still: many of the issues discussed in that thread are actually relevant for all HDV p or f acquisition. Bottomline: if you start a project with one of the new progressive HDV cameras, test your workflow. If HD DVD or BR is going to be at the end of the chain, give a 720p (downconverted from 1080@24/25 p/f/whatever) or 1080i a second thought. If it is a blow-up you are heading for choose a company now and discuss the workflow with them. There are always solutions to problems like this but I have a feeling that these 24/25 p/f/pfs issues are going to haunt us for a while. Martin Last edited by Martin Saxer; March 11th, 2007 at 03:42 PM.

March 11th, 2007, 01:41 AM	#3
Jess Charlton New Boot Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 6	This is a great source of confusion for me. I would be very grateful if someone could explain. What exactly is the difference between 25f and 25p? Is 25f basically the same as 25p? (with the exception that 25f applies to HDV and 25p applies to DV) Does the 25f mode produce "progressive scan" images equivalent to 25p?

March 11th, 2007, 11:43 AM	#5
Vincent Wong Yoon Wei New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Malaysia Posts: 5	I can still see people getting confused and the same people are confusing more people about the F mode. The F mode is same as P mode plain and simple. Canon should have just called it P and leave it at that. Canon's attempt at being honest just backfired here. There is no de-interlacing going on at all. Canon somehow managed to re-clock the interlaced chips to read progressively (or something like that). The output is true progressive video. No deinterlacing or field doubling voodoo going on.

March 11th, 2007, 03:36 PM	#6
Martin Saxer Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oxford, UK (until 2008: Lhasa, Tibetan Autonomous Region) Posts: 65	The output is, the CCDs are not. What ever happens in between is good enough not to worry too much, I agree. Let's stop the confusion. It looks good (from what I have seen) and that's all that counts. So the rest maybe OT: Most of us want real 1080@24/25p on 1080p projectors or real 1080p Screens (or 35mm film) in the end. But it remains to be seen whether 1080@25/25p/f is really the best option as acquisition format with a HDV camera when the goal is to deliver HD content to a huge variety of "HD ready" TV-sets. The HD spec is 720p/1080i isn't it? (Please correct me). If you can't go 50/60p then you might be happier with 50/60i in the end. Your oppinions? Has anybody here already gone through the whole process of HDV acquisition with a 24/25f Canon H1/A1/G1, HD Broadcast, a (pioneer) HD DVD and possibly a transfer to 35mm for theatrical release? I am longing for experienced informed advice on these matters.

March 12th, 2007, 03:39 PM	#7
Jess Charlton New Boot Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 6	Thank you Martin and Vincent for putting an end to my confusion. After reading the different views on the subject, I realise it's much more complex than I had thought. I agree it's not worth worrying about how the CCD's or the DIGIC DV II processor do their thing. If camera can output true progressive video and it looks good, that seems to be what matters.