Suggestion on SD 25p/50i FCP V.5 workflow.

[David Scattergood]

Hi,
I took some footage today that I need to deliver tomorrow (pretty much raw, aside from cuts etc).
I have mixed both SD25p and SD50i for this (fast pans/zooms don't suit progressive very well).
I have chosed the Easy Set up option of DVPAL - I couldn't see a way of discriminating between the interlaced and progressive however - is this set up good for both? What's DV 50 PAL??

The client requires short (7 seconds) bursts of footage which will eventually be incorportated within a 3D visualisation video and therefore I have to make this 4:3 (After Effects uses square pixels in this ratio).
I presume I can mix the frame rates within the timeline, but the client wants individual segments of footage (1 per shot basically) which means me creating around 20/30 little .MOV files when I export...would I therefore be best creating a new sequence for each shot or can I export each 'edited clip' from the timeline and create a individual file for each?

I've had a quick scout around the net but nothing as yet as helped...and he'd dearly like these files tomorrow am!!

Many thanks.

[David Knaggs]

Hi David.

DV50 PAL is DVCPRO50 (PAL). DVCPRO50 is a Panasonic codec and I reckon it's far superior to the DV codec (DV PAL). It gives bigger file sizes but I prefer to use it whenever I am working with an SD timeline.

I don't think it's necessary to make a new sequence for each little exported clip. Just set an in and out point in the timeline for a small "clip" and then the resultant .mov file will only contain the footage between those points.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

Hi David.

DV50 PAL is DVCPRO50 (PAL). DVCPRO50 is a Panasonic codec and I reckon it's far superior to the DV codec (DV PAL). It gives bigger file sizes but I prefer to use it whenever I am working with an SD timeline.

I don't think it's necessary to make a new sequence for each little exported clip. Just set an in and out point in the timeline for a small "clip" and then the resultant .mov file will only contain the footage between those points.

I might give DV50 a whirl then David - still ok with the JVC? The files sizes worry me a little but my next acquistion is a Raid Array drive (G tech most probably).
Bit confused as in Easy Set up there is DV50 and DVCPRO50 (and there are options for both these in anamorphic also!)

So, I could have a timeline containing, say, 30 clips and then reset the in/out point each time I export? Sounds like a much better proposition!

...and fine mixing 50i and 25p? I noticed on capture that the 50i had lines around the subjects when the camera panned...might have resolved itself when the clip was played back though).

Many thanks.

[Liam Hall]

David,

Your confusing frame rates with scan methods.

Your DVPAL timeline will be interlaced whatever the method of capture and you can determine whether your quicktime movies are progressive or interlaced when you export.

Just create one timeline if you find that easier to work with and use 'I' and 'O' for the part you need to export each time.

Don't forget DVPAL uses CCIR pixels, not square.

Hope that helps,

Liam.

[David Knaggs]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

I might give DV50 a whirl then David - still ok with the JVC?

I'm not actually sure if the JVC HDV camera is compatible with DVCPRO50 in terms of capturing or printing to tape. You could try it. But setting the Easy Setup to DV PAL can't fail in terms of capturing over the FireWire. Then you could make a DVCPRO50 sequence and edit your clips in that. As you are exporting to .mov files and not printing back to tape, you could stay in DVCPRO50 from there on out.

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Bit confused as in Easy Set up there is DV50 and DVCPRO50 (and there are options for both these in anamorphic also!)

There's DV50 and DVCPRO (not DVCPRO50). I'm not 100% sure of the Panasonic evolution of these codecs, but (vaguely) I think they first brought out DVCPRO, then DVCPRO25, then the vastly improved DVCPRO50. All of these are SD codecs. Then they brought out DVCPRO100 which they later re-named DVCPROHD as it was their first HD codec.
(I could be way off with this, but that's the impression I got.)
If you shot your footage in 4:3, stay away from anamorphic.

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

So, I could have a timeline containing, say, 30 clips and then reset the in/out point each time I export? Sounds like a much better proposition!

That's right.

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

...and fine mixing 50i and 25p?

I haven't actually tried it but it should work okay. I'm not sure how progressive shots and interlaced shots together would actually look aesthetically, but FCP will render all of the footage in the timeline into whatever codec you have selected.

[David Scattergood]

David,

Your confusing frame rates with scan methods.

Your DVPAL timeline will be interlaced whatever the method of capture and you can determine whether your quicktime movies are progressive or interlaced when you export.

Just create one timeline if you find that easier to work with and use 'I' and 'O' for the part you need to export each time.

Don't forget DVPAL uses CCIR pixels, not square.

Hope that helps,

Liam.

Cheers Liam - I think I must be???...some of the footage was captured as 25p (25 frames progressive - and I'm fairly sure the SD 25p is true progressive on this camera) and some 50 i (50 'frames' interlaced).
Slightly confused that my timeline will be interlaced...or is it only the HDV of this camera which is true progressive (or am I barking up the wrong tree?)

I'm pretty sure that After Effects automatically adjusts the pixels to square (768 x 576)...although if there's a way for me to present this footage already in square pixels it might help.

[David Scattergood]

If you shot your footage in 4:3, stay away from anamorphic.

Aye will be. I shot some anamorphic before, but didn't realise the client would only be using 768 x 576 ratio - you end up losing a lot of your image here.
For these projects (incorporated into 3D animation projects) I'll have to stick in 4:3. Of course that means HDV is out for such jobs - I wonder how people would get around that? You'd zoom in an lose resolution which kind of goes against the point of using HDV...[EDIT] Just read that HDV only uses square pixels...

[David Knaggs]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Aye will be. I shot some anamorphic before, but didn't realise the client would only be using 768 x 576 ratio - you end up losing a lot of your image here.
For these projects (incorporated into 3D animation projects) I'll have to stick in 4:3. Of course that means HDV is out for such jobs - I wonder how people would get around that? You'd zoom in an lose resolution which kind of goes against the point of using HDV...

David, you've just brought up a very intriguing point. My initial conclusion on this is that you will get a better quality image at the end of your workflow if you DO shoot in HDV.

Think about it. You are shooting 1280 X 720 pixels. Normally if you drag that clip into a 4:3 SD timeline (such as DV PAL or DV50PAL) you will get the black "letterbox" on the top and bottom of the frame. You then double-click the clip in the Timeline and expand the frame using the "scale" in the Motion tab of the Viewer until the point where the black letterbox bars disappear. You will lose some of the side pixels (from the 1280 width), but you will still have the 720 horizontal lines of pixels in terms of quality!

Okay, it's true that your PAL timeline is reducing everything to 576 horizontal lines, but the reason why Lawrence of Arabia looks great on your PAL TV set (which has reduced Lawrence of Arabia to only 576 lines) is because the source material was much higher resolution (being shot in 35mm film or higher) to begin with. So it gives a much higher quality image, even when downconverted to 576 lines, than something which was shot in the first place on a 576 line camera.

And that's why I reckon you might get a better quality result shooting in HDV. (I hope that made sense.)

[David Scattergood]

Yes it does David - good for these animation projects as the pixels will already be square! Must be the first time I've made an intriguing point on these boards mind :)
To be honest, I'm still a bit wary of HDV (JVC HD100) and Apple - I had saved your workflows (and have downloaded DVHSCAP and MPEG streamclip should anything untoward happen...and the odds suggest it will happen!).
After these next few jobs I'm going to start playing around with HDV until I'm comfortable...it's left a slightly sour taste though this 'native HDV' FCP editing, but I can't really comment till I have at least given this a go.

Still unsure over why my timeline is interlaced though (most of the footage will be 25p)? The 50i footage will be 25fps...

And I think you can alter your timeline to be square pixels, but as AE automatically does this I see no point.

[David Knaggs]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Still unsure over why my timeline is interlaced though (most of the footage will be 25p)? The 50i footage will be 25fps...

As far as I know, all Standard Definition is interlaced - whether it's NTSC or PAL. Adam Wilt's website has a lot of good explanations about the real basics of this sort of thing (for example).

So if you pick a PAL timeline, you are going to be working with interlaced.

50i means 50 fields per second. Each field gives you half a frame (scanning every second line). You put two consecutive fields together and you get one complete interlaced frame. So 50 fields (half frames) per second gives you 25 full frames per second.

Your 25p footage should still retain its progressive "look", even if interlaced (i.e. dragged into a PAL timeline), because the entire frame was taken in one unit of time.

Whereas a single frame from your 50i footage was taken in 2 different units of time (1/50th of a second apart). This is what gives you the "video look" as opposed to the progressive look which is more "filmic" (because with film the entire frame is also taken in one unit of time).

[David Scattergood]

Sorry David, I understand the interlaced (2 fields per frame) but didn't realise the SD PAL timeline would be considered interlaced. I thought I read that the 25p on the HD100 was true progressive - I guess this relates only to the HDV 25p format.

So if you pick a PAL timeline, you are going to be working with interlaced.

Would the HDV 25p (PAL) native timeline be interlaced also?
I've learned something else today then!

The footage I'm editing now (the mixed 50i/25p) is actually turning out ok, thankfully...wasn't the best of days mind, an overcast sky not particularly selling a place well!
Cheers.

[Liam Hall]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Sorry David, I understand the interlaced (2 fields per frame) but didn't realise the SD PAL timeline would be considered interlaced. I thought I read that the 25p on the HD100 was true progressive - I guess this relates only to the HDV 25p format.



Would the HDV 25p (PAL) native timeline be interlaced also?
I've learned something else today then!

The footage I'm editing now (the mixed 50i/25p) is actually turning out ok, thankfully...wasn't the best of days mind, an overcast sky not particularly selling a place well!
Cheers.

The HD100 does shoot true progressive. All 720 lines are captured simultaneously. They are then recorded to tape with odd and even lines on separate fields. In interlace recording the fields are captured separately.

The timeline in FCP doesn't care if you shot interlace or progressive. It just displays one set of fields after another and if you've shot progressive then they'll look, well, progressive.

It really only becomes an issue when you export, particularly with speed changes and captions. You really should export a reference movie and whack that into Mpeg Streamclip for export or reimport it and drop it on a new timeline with a better codec. Don't get too hung up on it, as it can all be sorted with a bit of trial and error when you come to export.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Liam Hall

The HD100 does shoot true progressive. All 720 lines are captured simultaneously. They are then recorded to tape with odd and even lines on separate fields. In interlace recording the fields are captured separately.

The timeline in FCP doesn't care if you shot interlace or progressive. It just displays one set of fields after another and if you've shot progressive then they'll look, well, progressive.

It really only becomes an issue when you export, particularly with speed changes and captions. You really should export a reference movie and whack that into Mpeg Streamclip for export or reimport it and drop it on a new timeline with a better codec. Don't get too hung up on it, as it can all be sorted with a bit of trial and error when you come to export.

Thanks Liam. Understand the timeline bit now!
Thankfully I'm only presenting this as raw footage, so no fancy editing/effects/speed changes etc. I intended to I and O the clips one at a time then Export as a self contained movie/movies (keeping the same settings as in capture etc).

I'd like to read up more on the progressive/interlaced issues when exporting...
Unfortunately I don't have the time to play with the exports at the moment (this has to be in tomorrow morning...and as of 1am it's still not complete!), but I'd like to try the Mpeg Streamclip method...though not sure how/which codec I could use to reimport into a new timeline...
Thank you both for your help this evening - I've learned a heck of a lot and got through this without panicing!
I feel as though I'm looking up at a mountain sometimes...slowly getting there!
Regards.

[David Knaggs]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Would the HDV 25p (PAL) native timeline be interlaced also?

HDV 25p is not PAL. It has nothing to do with PAL, really. Perhaps this will help clarify it a bit.

PAL TV is 576i at 25 frames per second.

High Definition TV will play both 1080i and 720p (and I think probably 1080p). I believe some US networks broadcast in 1080i and some broadcast in 720p.
The frame rates for HD TV depend mainly on the frequency of the electricity supply for that area. So in the UK and Australia, where the frequency is 50 Hertz, HD TV is 25 frames per second (because 1080i requires 50 fields per second when recording). And in the USA, where the power supply is at 60 Hz, they have 30 frames per second. Or rather, the USA SHOULD have 30 fps for HD TV. Yet they have adopted the bizarre legacy of their NTSC frame rate, which is 29.97 fps.

I guess they did that to make it easy to downconvert HD footage for showing on NTSC (SD) TV.

So the thing in common between 720p25 and PAL is a frame rate of 25 fps. But they really are distinctly separate things.

I apologize if I've gone over things that you already know well, but I think it's an extremely important point to get clear in your own mind, and I'd rather err on the side of over-clarifying.

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

... then Export as a self contained movie/movies (keeping the same settings as in capture etc).

It's great to hear that your project is progressing well. Although I'm not sure why you'd want to use MPEG Streamclip so late in your workflow. If you are intending to export with the same settings as you captured with (DV PAL), then you should simply export. No side trips to other applications should be needed.

The main use for MPEG Streamclip with footage from your camera (JVC GY-HD100 series) would be at the BEGINNING of your workflow. To convert your .m2t files from the camera (when shooting HDV 720p25) into Quicktime movies (using the codec of your choice) which can then be imported into FCP. Once you are in FCP you should have no further need for MPEG Streamclip (unless I am missing something). FCP and Compressor should be able to handle any other conversions from that point onwards.

[David Scattergood]

HDV 25p is not PAL. It has nothing to do with PAL, really. Perhaps this will help clarify it a bit.

PAL TV is 576i at 25 frames per second.

High Definition TV will play both 1080i and 720p (and I think probably 1080p). I believe some US networks broadcast in 1080i and some broadcast in 720p.
The frame rates for HD TV depend mainly on the frequency of the electricity supply for that area. So in the UK and Australia, where the frequency is 50 Hertz, HD TV is 25 frames per second (because 1080i requires 50 fields per second when recording). And in the USA, where the power supply is at 60 Hz, they have 30 frames per second. Or rather, the USA SHOULD have 30 fps for HD TV. Yet they have adopted the bizarre legacy of their NTSC frame rate, which is 29.97 fps.

I guess they did that to make it easy to downconvert HD footage for showing on NTSC (SD) TV.

So the thing in common between 720p25 and PAL is a frame rate of 25 fps. But they really are distinctly separate things.

I apologize if I've gone over things that you already know well, but I think it's an extremely important point to get clear in your own mind, and I'd rather err on the side of over-clarifying.

David, I just assumed that a broadcast rate would be referred to as PAL (as long as the rate is divisible by 50 as you referred to) in the uk irrespective the number of lines - so this is news to me! I understand this now. As the majority of TV's sold now are HDTV (and most likely progressive - LCD's and Plasma) then I guess 'PAL' will eventually be on it's way out...I believe the European TV standards are pushing towards progressive (720p possibly?).

It's great to hear that your project is progressing well. Although I'm not sure why you'd want to use MPEG Streamclip so late in your workflow. If you are intending to export with the same settings as you captured with (DV PAL), then you should simply export. No side trips to other applications should be needed.

The main use for MPEG Streamclip with footage from your camera (JVC GY-HD100 series) would be at the BEGINNING of your workflow. To convert your .m2t files from the camera (when shooting HDV 720p25) into Quicktime movies (using the codec of your choice) which can then be imported into FCP. Once you are in FCP you should have no further need for MPEG Streamclip (unless I am missing something). FCP and Compressor should be able to handle any other conversions from that point onwards

Not sure David...I may have misread Liam's earlier post.
The HDV workflow you suggested in the past, is something I'm very aware of - I'd actually printed it off in readiment for HDV fun! I'm hoping that I can get round it with Apple behaving correctly (I may need to check my camera's firmware also) but I don't hold out much hope.
Did you mention a preferred codec when converting .mT2 files into quicktime?
Appreciate all this help fella.
Cheers.