24 fps 720p to PAL at DVinfo.net

Vince DeMaar · February 1st, 2007, 06:56 PM

Hello,

One short question, is it really wise to shoot in 24 fps and then convert to 25 fps (SD) for PAL broadcast?

Tim Dashwood · February 1st, 2007, 07:57 PM

I just did it the other day and the 4% speed up isn't even noticable.
The advantage is that you can maintain a 24P HD master for future use in HD or NTSC.

Nima Taheri · February 2nd, 2007, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

I just did it the other day and the 4% speed up isn't even noticable.

Tim:
What was your work flow of getting the 24p to 25p? Did you get any noticable "ghosting"?

Tim Dashwood · February 2nd, 2007, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nima Taheri

Tim:
What was your work flow of getting the 24p to 25p? Did you get any noticable "ghosting"?

I use Final Cut Pro 5.1.2.

The HDV 720P24 was ingested natively and cut in a native 720P24 sequence.
When I was finished I dropped the 720P24 sequence into a "DV PAL 48Khz - 23.98" sequence. (23.98 fps, 720 x 576) FCP automatically resized and letterboxed the source sequence into the 4x3 frame and I rendered it. I also duplicated the sequence on the timeline, adjusted the settings to make an alternate anamorphic version (80% scale, aspect 42)

I then output a self contained quicktime of the PAL 23.98fps sequence and then "conformed" it to 25fps in Cinema Tools.
I then brought my new PAL 25fps DV file back into FCP and edited to tape via firewire, called Fedex, and sent it to Germany!

There was no ghosting because each frame is preserved in its original form. The frames are just played back at a slightly faster rate.

Antony Michael Wilson · February 3rd, 2007, 10:39 AM

Yep, you won't get ghosting from 24p to 25p (or 25i PsF). There's a 1:1 frame relationship - the only change is playback speed, so it's nothing like NTSC-PAL (or vice versa) standards conversion as far as motion is concerned.

As to the original question - although Tim is perfectly correct that it is fine to shoot 24p for 625/50 SD delivery and the tools and skills are out there to do it - it is a hassle you really don't need if you're primarily concerned with Europe. If the NTSC world is an important part of the game plan then 24P is the way to go but if, for example, you're producing for a European broadcaster I'd recommend sticking with 25P. You can always do the reverse and slow down to 24P later if you need to. It all depends on your end point.

I've onlined 24P with Symphony Universal and other kit on UK-US and UK-Canada co-productions many times without too much pain and with great results but if you're in Germany and there is no compelling business reason to shoot 24P then you'll make life a whole lot easier for all concerned by sticking with 25P.

Melvin Torrens · July 13th, 2007, 10:05 PM

Is there any other way of doing this?
I tried this and video looks good but my audio went out of sync and some changes I made in color are not well after the conversion from HDV 720p24 to DV PAL.
The beginning and end of the audio are as they were but most of the middle is out of sync :S

Tim Dashwood · July 13th, 2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melvin Torrens

Is there any other way of doing this?
I tried this and video looks good but my audio went out of sync and some changes I made in color are not well after the conversion from HDV 720p24 to DV PAL.
The beginning and end of the audio are as they were but most of the middle is out of sync :S

I wouldn't suggest doing the downconversion and frame rate conform until the cut is locked. This way there will be no frame rate confusion during the roundtrip to Color. Do your corrections first and finalize your 720P24 version.
Keep in mind that the color space of HD and SD are different. You may need to use a LUT in Color to see what the final output will look like after the downconversion to PAL. Sorry I can't help you more with this as I am still learning Color.
Downconvert and output your final sequence to a 23.98fps quicktime at 720x576, and then use Cinema tools to conform the frame rate to 25. Audio sync will be maintained.

Melvin Torrens · July 16th, 2007, 12:53 AM

Thanks Tim, I managed to figure out a solution before reading your reply
I converted the footage to AIC which I should have done during capture. Colors didn't change. I then conformed the footage to 25fps and compressed it to SD using compressor which only took 1 hour compared with HDV codec that was compressing for 8 hours.

John Mitchell · July 17th, 2007, 08:19 AM

Hi Tim - when conforming, does Cinema tools fix the audio frequency as well?

February 1st, 2007, 06:56 PM	#1
Vince DeMaar New Boot Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: München, Germany Posts: 5	24 fps 720p to PAL Hello, One short question, is it really wise to shoot in 24 fps and then convert to 25 fps (SD) for PAL broadcast?

February 1st, 2007, 07:57 PM	#2
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	I just did it the other day and the 4% speed up isn't even noticable. The advantage is that you can maintain a 24P HD master for future use in HD or NTSC. __________________ Tim Dashwood

February 3rd, 2007, 10:39 AM	#5
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Yep, you won't get ghosting from 24p to 25p (or 25i PsF). There's a 1:1 frame relationship - the only change is playback speed, so it's nothing like NTSC-PAL (or vice versa) standards conversion as far as motion is concerned. As to the original question - although Tim is perfectly correct that it is fine to shoot 24p for 625/50 SD delivery and the tools and skills are out there to do it - it is a hassle you really don't need if you're primarily concerned with Europe. If the NTSC world is an important part of the game plan then 24P is the way to go but if, for example, you're producing for a European broadcaster I'd recommend sticking with 25P. You can always do the reverse and slow down to 24P later if you need to. It all depends on your end point. I've onlined 24P with Symphony Universal and other kit on UK-US and UK-Canada co-productions many times without too much pain and with great results but if you're in Germany and there is no compelling business reason to shoot 24P then you'll make life a whole lot easier for all concerned by sticking with 25P.

July 13th, 2007, 10:05 PM	#6
Melvin Torrens Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 46	Is there any other way of doing this? I tried this and video looks good but my audio went out of sync and some changes I made in color are not well after the conversion from HDV 720p24 to DV PAL. The beginning and end of the audio are as they were but most of the middle is out of sync :S

July 16th, 2007, 12:53 AM	#8
Melvin Torrens Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 46	Thanks Tim, I managed to figure out a solution before reading your reply I converted the footage to AIC which I should have done during capture. Colors didn't change. I then conformed the footage to 25fps and compressed it to SD using compressor which only took 1 hour compared with HDV codec that was compressing for 8 hours.

July 17th, 2007, 08:19 AM	#9
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Hi Tim - when conforming, does Cinema tools fix the audio frequency as well?