The 4 Second problem (HD100+FCP5.0.4)

[David Knaggs]

Originally Posted by Drew Curran

What do you mean "this only applies when I'm transcoding"?
Do you find HDV easier to work with? I tend to find it very slow to render out to SD DVD.

Hi Andrew.

Gosh, this is getting to be a busy thread. There were 4 extra posts done during the time I was answering Trevor's post!

By "transcoding" I simply meant "capture as an .m2t file and transcode that into a Quicktime using MPEG Streamclip".

I prefer capturing natively (HDV 720p25) in FCP and then working in a native HDV 720p25 timeline. I then directly export the DVD assets (.m2v and .ac3 files) directly from the timeline using Compressor.

I prefer this method because it gives "theoretical best quality". I once covered the reasons for this at length in another thread, but my understanding of FCP is that it actually works with the timeline in 4:4:4 (Uncompressed) and only applies the render files permanently if you export as Quicktime.

Therefore if you capture natively through FCP (which does NOT transcode or degrade the image any further - it simply puts a Quicktime wrapper around it) and work in a native timeline (no further alteration and, internally, treated as 4:4:4) then the only compression your images have received is from the camera's MPEG-2 encoder when you originally recorded your tape.

So directly exporting from your timeline using Compressor then introduces the only other compression required for a DVD and here you have great control over the quality (you can bump up the bitrates and also alter the GOP structure, plus you can add Compression Markers in your original FCP timeline at points where there is a lot of motion).

Then just import the already-encoded assets into DVD Studio Pro.

The Compressor export does take a bit of time, but this method really does give the best quality (in my personal experience).

I don't recommend exporting your timeline sequence as a Quicktime and then importing into Compressor (because it introduces an extra step of compression when making the Quicktime).

The very fastest method I know of to make an SD DVD is to export an AIC Quicktime and encode it in iDVD. It's really fast encoding! (But not the best quality.)

[Drew Curran]

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

I prefer capturing natively (HDV 720p25) in FCP and then working in a native HDV 720p25 timeline. I then directly export the DVD assets (.m2v and .ac3 files) directly from the timeline using Compressor.

Thanks David

I used this process also until i was hit by the timnecode break issue in FCP during a long edit (2.5hrs of captured material). When I played the clips back there was breaks all over the place, and important bits missing. I used DVHSCap and got around these problems. Until then I was producing only 5 to 10 minute promotional movies, so the FCP timecode thing didn't seem to affect me.

How do u avoid the TC problem?

With HDV I noticed fairly slow render times when exporting using compressor to SD DVD's. I also noticed that I had fewer realtime effects during editing on the timeline using native HDV.

I was lead to an article stating that HDV is processor intensive, which advised using AIC or DVCPROHD instead. I've now reverted to using DVHScap and Streamclip, and have noticed vastly improved rendering and RT effects in FCP. I also avoid the TC break issues during capturing.


Andrew

[Trevor Allin]

Hi david

Thanks for this. I will try exporting it as AIC. The only difficulty I have for this particulr project is that I have 19 tapes (3 camera shoot) and I have captured 17 of them as 720p already.
On the next project I will definately use AIC instead.

This current export ended up with 12 data breaks! I am wondering though if the tape is struggling because I have played it so often trying to capture it. I am hoping this might be the cause of the problem rather than a camera fault.

Trevor

[Trevor Allin]

Update

I spoke to JVC here in the UK and they have said that I have to send the camera into them and they have an upgrade that will 'fix' the problem.

I think it is as I suspected, both an FCP problem and, in my case, a camera problem.

Trevor

[Jonathan Nelson]

Originally Posted by Trevor Allin

Update

I spoke to JVC here in the UK and they have said that I have to send the camera into them and they have an upgrade that will 'fix' the problem.

I think it is as I suspected, both an FCP problem and, in my case, a camera problem.

Trevor

Well if you have a camera problem, then I also have a camera problem because my hd100 does the same exact thing. It has been the story of my life.

I wonder if this update really does fix the problem. I woulnt mind sending mine in to get an update if one is available in usa.

[David Knaggs]

Originally Posted by Drew Curran

How do u avoid the TC problem?

The only workable method I know of for this (with HDV 720p25 footage) is to set the TC GEN switch to REC before recording the tapes. It somehow makes it easier for FCP to capture a full clip (rather than arbitrarily break it into 2 or 3 smaller clips with 7-second gaps). I cover this fully under the heading "SECOND WORKAROUND" in this post:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....47&postcount=5

But working in AIC and exporting via Compressor into SD DVD assets has given me terrific results in the past so I fully understand your sticking to that workflow (DVHSCap-MPEG Streamclip) and we can only hope that Apple updates FCP to fix these capturing problems soon.

[Alexei Kidel]

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

Hi Alexei.
....snip....

Dear David,

I can't thank you enough for helping me out. I have just shelled out a fair whack on all this new gear and was dreading spending late nights fighting with the computer. The transcoding to DVCPRO HD gave me some problems, but the AIC solution seems to working a treat. I will be converting all my rushes this way and after making a backup of all of them, hopefully, FCP will be very happy with them.

Once again, many thanks!

[Trevor Allin]

Hi Jonathan

When I phoned JVC the tech guy got me to hold in the focus assist on the side of the camera and also the status button at the same time. This brought up version information that told the tech guy that my camera needed the upgrade.

May be if you get that info and phone JVC they will be able to do something. Over here in the UK it is a free upgrade so I suspect it would be there too.

I think the tech guys optimism about 'fixing' the problem is abit OTT, though I hope I am wrong. From all these threads and experience there seems definatley to be an FCP problem as well.

I love my HD101 but boy has it been a whole lot of time and trouble.

Trevor

[Alex Bowles]

Hi all,

When I first called JVC about this problem, hey told me I wouldn't be able to get a clean import unless I was using the HD-110, or the HD-100 with the 'A' firmware upgrade and FCP 5.1.

I've gotten this done (firmware upgrade was already done.) Short story is, no joy. I read another post that says 5.1.3 offers hope, but again, JVC said this was supposed to be fixed in 5.1...

The story I'm getting now is that there must be something wrong with my camera in particular, and that I should send it in for repairs.

Two things seem dubious here; (1) judging from this length of this string, I'm hardly alone. (2) They've made no guarantees that the repairs, which I'll need to pay for, will actually work, as the root issue seems to be on the Mac side (details below.)

Instead, I'm simply moving away from the camera. But here are some bits of information I picked up that may be useful to folks still working with it.

1. Incompatibility with Apple

The problem seems to be Mac only. JVC says that has to do with the 'very literal' way OSX deals with incoming transport streams. I wasn't sure what this meant, but apparently it's more stringent than I/O for Win-Tel systems. In other words, the root of the problem is a Mac-specific architecture issue over which JVC has no real control.

Folks using this camera with Premier, Vegas etc. have confirmed that Win-Tel systems don't run into this issue.

JVC did not try to explain why other equipment makers were able to negotiate both Mac and Win-Tel I/O successfully.

2. Video Flags

Apparently, JVC attempted to remedy the situation with improvements to the way the transport streams are flagged by the encoder (i.e. in-camera.)

These were incorporated in the 'A' firmware upgrade. Accordingly (and this is per JVC) tapes recorded on a pre-upgrade HD-100 will still demonstrate the problem, even if the capture deck has been upgraded, and the user is running 5.1. In my experience they both fail, but this the JVC line.

3. Uncompressed Output

None of this has any bearing if you're using the uncompressed component out, and using FCP to manage direct-to-disk capture.

Right now, the camera is doing good service as a signal generator as I get the bugs worked out of a RAID-based DDR solution. But unless I divest myself from FCP (unlikely) I'm unable to rely on it for work that's done on tape.

Hope this helps.

[Brandon Lindauer]

Just an update to this quite annoying issue...

I just spent several days at NAB and was able to talk to an Apple guy at the JVC booth, we talked about the problem then he reffered me to one of the actual FCP engineers down at the Apple booth.

Seems that basically the HD100 sends its stream in a "different" way than most firewire cameras. The engineer made reference to a bandwidth issue. And since HDV has a very low bitrate this confused me and he started speaking techno mumbo jumbo.

Anyway, he also said that because the JVC sends information in the way that it does, FCP is not able to "reliably" recieve the information. Apparently there are apple engineers working as liasons to JVC, attempting to solve this problem.
Yes they are aware of the Problem.
No its not fixed in FCP 6.
Yes it is on the list, but as the gentleman said... "its a V E R Y long list!"

Just thought you all might want to know.

What really got me was the exhibit at the JVC booth with the Apple guy demoing how great FCP and the JVC gear work seamlessly together, knowing full well that this problem exists. Eh, go figure.

[Alexei Kidel]

Thank you very much for updating on this issue.

What a pain, I really had hopes for FCP6. Oh well, back to continuing with the workaround.

I'm almost finished a documentary using the workaround and it's not been the best solution to be transcoding to AIC, but I have to say it's worked on the whole. The one thing that really annoyed us was the default audio setting on MPEGstreamclip. All of our audio was boosted by 6db.

Apart from this the camera has been a treat to work with. When the scene is well lit the picture is a joy.

[Robert Castiglione]

I think that there are serious issues in not openly disclosing the difficulties with capture. There are of course many people who do not read boards like this. A bit of corporate honesty would be desirable.

Rob