24p - The End All Be All Thread

Chris Rentzel · September 5th, 2007, 10:51 AM

Hi,

I have a finished FCP project: HDV footage in 720p at 24fps. Everything's rendered and ready to go.

The theater I'm screening the film at requires a Sony HDCam at 1080i/60i.

How do I get my FCP project ready to record to tape for those parameters?

Chris Rentzel · September 11th, 2007, 06:43 PM

This should be so simple, but I'm at a loss as to what to do?

Jim Fields · September 12th, 2007, 01:20 AM

Chris, give me a call, I can help you export this.

682-203-2994

I am in Sherman and visit Dallas twice a week.

Brian Boyko · October 29th, 2007, 09:20 PM

Okay, this is going to sound stupid and weird and everything... but...

I have an HV20, and footage shot as 24P.

I like the 24P look and will use it.

Now, there's a complicated workflow, involving downloading the raw footage from the camera, running it through JES Deinterlacer, and re-importing the now Inverse Telecined film in the "real" 24P.

However, instead of doing that for 10 odd tapes I have for this short project, why can't I edit the movie first, using the 60i telecined video (which I can view perfectly well) and then deinterlace the entire movie?

Would that create problems? Would it look somehow worse? Would edits to hue and saturation look weird because of the deinterlacing process?

Because, to tell the truth, I'd rather go through the deinterlacing process as few times as possible.

Chris Barcellos · October 29th, 2007, 09:30 PM

Brian:

I don't know for sure, but I don't think you want to deinterlace that footage. If you do, you will probably wreck it as far as pull down removal. Why do I say that ? Not because I'm a great tech wizard, but because Cineform says don't select deinterlace when you capture and select pulldown with Cineform NeoHDV. I have captured in HDV 1080i, edited and rendered in that, and then converted with pull down in Cineform. I think you do run the risk of problem in the subsequent conversion at the cut points, or when you have a transition, but the simple edit I did that way seemed to be okay.

Brian Boyko · October 29th, 2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Brian:

I don't know for sure, but I don't think you want to deinterlace that footage. If you do, you will probably wreck it as far as pull down removal. Why do I say that ? Not because I'm a great tech wizard, but because Cineform says don't select deinterlace when you capture and select pulldown with Cineform NeoHDV. I have captured in HDV 1080i, edited and rendered in that, and then converted with pull down in Cineform. I think you do run the risk of problem in the subsequent conversion at the cut points, or when you have a transition, but the simple edit I did that way seemed to be okay.

I may be getting my terms screwed up. JES DeInterlacer is the tool used to do the Inverse Telecine pulldown. (which, as it would happen, removes the "false" interlacing from the 24P footage)

But if you tell me you've captured HDV 1080i, edited, and rendered in that, and THEN converted with pulldown, you've told me pretty much what I need to know!

:)

That makes this project a WHOLE lot simpler if I can worry about doing the pulldown after the project is edited!
-- Brian.

Chris Barcellos · October 29th, 2007, 09:44 PM

What I have done to be safe in cases where you want to avoid any issues is to capture the footage, then determine which clips I want to use for sure, set them in a separate folder, and go into that and batch convert with Cineform.

Does JES actually convert HV20 footage properly ? HV20 does not have flags that other 24p has, and the pull down program has to be able to be able to detect the 24p to do it properly. That is Cineforms claim to fame, but I haven't yet heard of many others..

Brian Boyko · October 29th, 2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

What I have done to be safe in cases where you want to avoid any issues is to capture the footage, then determine which clips I want to use for sure, set them in a separate folder, and go into that and batch convert with Cineform.

Does JES actually convert HV20 footage properly ? HV20 does not have flags that other 24p has, and the pull down program has to be able to be able to detect the 24p to do it properly. That is Cineforms claim to fame, but I haven't yet heard of many others..

Yeah, I just tested it out with one of my clips (and man, world of difference when it comes to the quality between 60i and 24p!)

Interestingly enough, if I can figure out a way to batch process the files, I can just batch process Tape A while Tape B is capturing...

Chris Barcellos · October 29th, 2007, 11:23 PM

Cool... didn't know JES did that. Of course that is MAC side, and I forgot that is your OS.

Kelly OHara · October 30th, 2007, 12:00 PM

The only real problem is any transitions you have in your edited footage will change the cadence, and if any are rendered transitions or multiple shots, they will show interlacing artifacts.

I've tried both methods and the best is to pass your footage through JES DeInterlacer first before editing if you intend to have 1080-24p for your final output. The interlacing is quite visible in cross-fades and a de-interlacing pass will quite likely not remove it.

If you're using FCS2, you can also recompress it all to the Apple ProRes format too, not that you'll garner better quality from the 422 colorspace, but you will lose less fidelity in the recompression.

Kelly OHara · October 30th, 2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Does JES actually convert HV20 footage properly ? HV20 does not have flags that other 24p has, and the pull down program has to be able to be able to detect the 24p to do it properly. That is Cineforms claim to fame, but I haven't yet heard of many others..

From my understanding, JES will go through and detect the cadence of the 24 in the 60i footage by checking for interlaced data on the frames (2 interlaced, three non-interlaced) and then infer what cadence it is for your target framerate (24p or 23.98p). I have had some footage that it won't detect the cadence and thereby won't convert (out of about 150 clips, two would consistently fail to convert so I had to revert to cinema tools and the manual cadence specification).

To my untrained eye, I haven't seen too much difference in playback between the two and found no interlacing artifacts in the converted footage. The only issue I've ever come across is getting the aspect ratio to work correctly when saving to a Quicktime format.

Brian Boyko · November 2nd, 2007, 10:13 AM

Everything seems to be hunky dory - JES Deinterlacer's doing a damn good job now that I've fixed the kinks.

-- Brian.

Katie Mims · November 7th, 2007, 11:01 AM

Hi Everyone,

I have the Sony HVR-V1U, and I did a search on the forum to see if I could find out what capture settings work with the footage from my camera and FCS6, and didn't find much.

My question is, what capture settings work in this newer version? Can it work with the 24p footage from this camera?

Can I use the HDV 1080i60 or 1080p24 easy setup?

Or do I need to capture it and then reverse telecine it in CinemaTools? If so, what is the best codec to capture in?

Any help would be appreciated! Trying to use FCP 5 with the footage from my camera was a nightmare. I'm really hoping it's simpler in this version!

Thanks!

Sony HVR-V1U
FCS 6
MacBook Pro
2.2 Intel Core 2 Duo
2 GB SDRAM

Dom Stevenson · November 7th, 2007, 12:44 PM

You should be using the 1080p24 easy setup if yr shooting progressive.

Katie Mims · November 7th, 2007, 01:41 PM

And the pulldown will be removed? I don't need to run it through Cinema Tools or anything else like that like in the older version of FCP?

September 5th, 2007, 10:51 AM	#76
Chris Rentzel Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 60	Help with 720p 24p to 1080i/60i Hi, I have a finished FCP project: HDV footage in 720p at 24fps. Everything's rendered and ready to go. The theater I'm screening the film at requires a Sony HDCam at 1080i/60i. How do I get my FCP project ready to record to tape for those parameters?

October 29th, 2007, 09:20 PM	#79
Brian Boyko Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 773	A complicated 24P workflow question Okay, this is going to sound stupid and weird and everything... but... I have an HV20, and footage shot as 24P. I like the 24P look and will use it. Now, there's a complicated workflow, involving downloading the raw footage from the camera, running it through JES Deinterlacer, and re-importing the now Inverse Telecined film in the "real" 24P. However, instead of doing that for 10 odd tapes I have for this short project, why can't I edit the movie first, using the 60i telecined video (which I can view perfectly well) and then deinterlace the entire movie? Would that create problems? Would it look somehow worse? Would edits to hue and saturation look weird because of the deinterlacing process? Because, to tell the truth, I'd rather go through the deinterlacing process as few times as possible.

October 29th, 2007, 09:30 PM	#80
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Brian: I don't know for sure, but I don't think you want to deinterlace that footage. If you do, you will probably wreck it as far as pull down removal. Why do I say that ? Not because I'm a great tech wizard, but because Cineform says don't select deinterlace when you capture and select pulldown with Cineform NeoHDV. I have captured in HDV 1080i, edited and rendered in that, and then converted with pull down in Cineform. I think you do run the risk of problem in the subsequent conversion at the cut points, or when you have a transition, but the simple edit I did that way seemed to be okay. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

October 29th, 2007, 09:44 PM	#82
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	What I have done to be safe in cases where you want to avoid any issues is to capture the footage, then determine which clips I want to use for sure, set them in a separate folder, and go into that and batch convert with Cineform. Does JES actually convert HV20 footage properly ? HV20 does not have flags that other 24p has, and the pull down program has to be able to be able to detect the 24p to do it properly. That is Cineforms claim to fame, but I haven't yet heard of many others.. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

October 29th, 2007, 11:23 PM	#84
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Cool... didn't know JES did that. Of course that is MAC side, and I forgot that is your OS. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

September 11th, 2007, 06:43 PM	#77
Chris Rentzel Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 60	This should be so simple, but I'm at a loss as to what to do?

September 12th, 2007, 01:20 AM	#78
Jim Fields Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Fort Worth Texas Posts: 247	Chris, give me a call, I can help you export this. 682-203-2994 I am in Sherman and visit Dallas twice a week.

October 30th, 2007, 12:00 PM	#85
Kelly OHara New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 20	The only real problem is any transitions you have in your edited footage will change the cadence, and if any are rendered transitions or multiple shots, they will show interlacing artifacts. I've tried both methods and the best is to pass your footage through JES DeInterlacer first before editing if you intend to have 1080-24p for your final output. The interlacing is quite visible in cross-fades and a de-interlacing pass will quite likely not remove it. If you're using FCS2, you can also recompress it all to the Apple ProRes format too, not that you'll garner better quality from the 422 colorspace, but you will lose less fidelity in the recompression.

November 2nd, 2007, 10:13 AM	#87
Brian Boyko Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 773	Everything seems to be hunky dory - JES Deinterlacer's doing a damn good job now that I've fixed the kinks. -- Brian.

November 7th, 2007, 11:01 AM	#88
Katie Mims Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 32	24p Capture Settings in FCS6 Help Hi Everyone, I have the Sony HVR-V1U, and I did a search on the forum to see if I could find out what capture settings work with the footage from my camera and FCS6, and didn't find much. My question is, what capture settings work in this newer version? Can it work with the 24p footage from this camera? Can I use the HDV 1080i60 or 1080p24 easy setup? Or do I need to capture it and then reverse telecine it in CinemaTools? If so, what is the best codec to capture in? Any help would be appreciated! Trying to use FCP 5 with the footage from my camera was a nightmare. I'm really hoping it's simpler in this version! Thanks! Sony HVR-V1U FCS 6 MacBook Pro 2.2 Intel Core 2 Duo 2 GB SDRAM

November 7th, 2007, 12:44 PM	#89
Dom Stevenson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London UK Posts: 430	You should be using the 1080p24 easy setup if yr shooting progressive.

November 7th, 2007, 01:41 PM	#90
Katie Mims Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 32	And the pulldown will be removed? I don't need to run it through Cinema Tools or anything else like that like in the older version of FCP?