FCP 5.1.2 NOW AVAILABLE with 720P24 & 720P25 native support

[Scott Tebeau]

Han,
any progress with your capturing?

[Han Savelkoel]

Well, i'm trying different things. No very good results until now. I consulted my apple and FCP dealer/helpdesk. They are specialist in apple video-systems. Still no answers on my problem.

I tried the suggestion from Tim Dashwood for 24fps capturing, using HDV Firewire NDF and - in my case - changing the framerate to 25fps. It worked out once and as i'm writing this once again! But it in some occasions in between these successes it did'nt work... Can't find a proper reason why it isn't working all the time. It looks like capturing on the edge of possibilities.

The last succesfull capture i used HDV firewire NDF with framrate changed to 25fps. Capturing using in- en out point in a batch capture. The other presets where from the easy setup for 720p25. I first logged the clip with in and out points. After that i batch capture the clip.

Right now i'm trying for the 5th (!) tape -all shot in one take without timcodebreaks- in two days. For the second time i get an error 'a stream error was detected during the last capture attempt'. No settings have changed.

Next thursday i'm going to take the camera to my apple/fcp helpdesk to find out more. Meanwhile keep you informed.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

I guess we shouldn't throw away our old workarounds just yet (especially event videographers).

I haven't had a chance to test it yet, but I think this workflow should be effective for adding those missing first seconds of footage into your HDV 720p25 sequence in FCP:


1. Capture the missing seconds of footage as an .m2t file from the camera or deck using DVHSCap. DVHSCap is part of the “FireWire SDK 20” package and can be downloaded from this page...

...13. Import your newly created Quicktime movie into FCP and drag it into your HDV 720p25 sequence.

I would imagine that it would be rendered and then behave like all of the footage that was captured directly through FCP.

And because the clip is less than 10 seconds long, making it uncompressed shouldn't cause any problems with drive space.

Hi David, I was going to send you an email but the option wasn't available.
I'd printed your workflow off from one of the threads a week or so back. Knowing you're in PAL land I wanted to know if you have any updates on editing HDV via FCP? I've finally taken delivery of my mac with FCP and could do with getting cracking asap (though due to a steep learning curve, what with using an alien OS and FCP for the first time, this might not be possible yet!)

The set up I'm using will be pretty basic in as much as the footage will be directly piped from the HD100 camera straight into FCP (no intermediate decks/HDD's here I'm afraid). Should I follow the original DVHSCAP (capturing mT2 files) to Quicktime exports or give the native 25p capture a whirl?
I'd just like to get on with it - there might be slight loss of quality here and there but I have to utilise what equipment I have.

Is there a general consensus on the FCP native upgrades a few weeks after they were implemented folks?
Many thanks.

[David Knaggs]

As luck would have it, I'd just finished a massive editing job the day BEFORE the latest FCP update was released (and I've since been poring over the lessons in my recently-arrived Soundtrack Pro training book), so I haven't tested it yet.

I'm due to start some new corporate shooting in 720p25 later this week, so then I'll be able to speak from experience, rather than theory. But I am intending to (and would recommend) capturing natively. Just set the "Easy Setup" to "HDV - 720p25", then capture and edit away.

I'm just going to pre-roll the camera for a good 10-15 seconds before each take. Some have reported (on this board) that their camera "stutters" the footage when capturing over Firewire, which makes FCP think the take is finished while still in the middle, but that might be due to bugs with individual cameras (or maybe not). The best way is to try it with your set-up and remember that you can always fall back on the earlier workflows (such as DVHSCap and MPEG Streamclip) if need be. It's a good safety net.

[David Scattergood]

Thanks David - yes, I'll be testing away once I figure out the mac OS (having always used PC's)!
I'll give both native capture and the workflow you suggested a go. The pre-roll is good for certain projects (docs/short films) but not so handy when after that spontaneous burst of activity (wildlife for example). Perhaps I'll stick to SD 25p/50i for corporates and HDV for more personal projects?! Of course, I might not experience any issues at all (wishful thinking eh?).

Cheers - let us know how you get on with the corporate stuff next week fella.

[David Knaggs]

You probably just need to get a bit of confidence shooting and editing 720p25, because I've been shooting corporates for the last 14 months in 720p25 (and downconverting to SD for delivery) and have had zero problems using DVHSCap-MPEG Streamclip-AIC. Absolutely rock-solid.

These new updates to FCP will simply make life easier (such as giving timecode, audio in synch and saving lots of time) for working in HDV 720p25.

Yes, you could shoot your corporates in PAL 50i (I directed a commercial in June where the client insisted on 50i - so I know the camera gives great images in 50i) but it could be a wise move to shoot, edit and archive in 720p25 (downconverting to SD only for current delivery). I've got one corporate client (who stated last year that he couldn't care less if it's done in SD or HD) who is now very glad that I mastered a video we did last September in HD. He recently got a large HD plasma TV for his home and is suddenly a massive fan of HD and has been talking about installing a large HD plasma in his lobby to show the video to clients. As HD DVD players start to catch on (and when Blu-Ray gets released) I expect this trend to accelerate. So unless you've got a corporate client who insists on a 4:3 aspect ratio, I think it's wisest to shoot in 720p25 if you can. (Purely my opinion. It's quite okay to ignore it because only you are familiar with your particular clients and their needs.) But get some confidence first with the editing workflow for 720p25 footage.

I've also realized that there are actually now 2 options for capturing 720p25 footage through FCP. You can capture in "HDV - 720p25" or you can capture in "HDV - Apple Intermediate Codec" where FCP captures the footage and transcodes it to AIC on the fly. This HDV-AIC method has the big advantage of giving you timecode plus saving a lot of time compared to the earlier DVHSCap workflow.

So my preferred options (given in order of preference) for 720p25 footage are:

1/ Just set the "Easy Setup" to "HDV - 720p25", then capture and edit away. Then do the final export in whatever codec you prefer.

2/ If there are problems with capturing in HDV - 720p25 which aren't resolving (even after shortening the pre-roll and post-roll settings) then capture and work in "HDV - Apple Intermediate Codec" as follows:
a) Set the "Easy Setup" to "HDV - 720p25"
b) Open "Audio/Video Settings"
c) On the "Summary" pane, go to the "Capture Preset" window and scroll down to and select "HDV - Apple Intermediate Codec"
d) Click "OK"
e) Capture your footage over the Firewire
f) Create a new sequence
g) On the menu bar under "Sequence" click "Settings" (or press Apple-0)
h) Under "Compressor" scroll down to and select "Apple Intermediate Codec"
i) Click "Advanced" then select the preset of "HDV 720p" and click "OK"
j) Click "OK" again

You should be good to go. (But remember I'm just giving you a theory at this point.)

3/ If there are still problems with missing parts of clips, etc. using 1/ or 2/ above, then use the old DVHSCap-MPEG Streamclip-AIC workflow as given in earlier posts. As I said before, it's rock-solid, but it won't give you timecode and it will take longer.

It's probably a good idea to shoot a single piece of footage in 720p25 then try all 3 methods with that same footage.

[David Scattergood]

Many thanks David - you're right, I need to get my own hands dirty now.
The mac is actually partially in the box (taken it out to see it) - the reseller neglected to include a power plug! Can use a spare one I guess but it doesn't fit snug (apple deisgns for you!) and since I've paid all that money I'd expect everything in the box! However, they did fully install FCP studio for me, so when I get the time I'm good to go.

Wouldn't missing timecode be a bit of a problem...I only ask as I can't currently see a need for TC at the moment - though is this pretty much required for certain types of work (multi cam/linking up foley & soundtracks).
I guess I have a requirment to read up a little more on timecode - last time I was using this was when at college linking multi-track recordings via SMPTE.
I'd also like to utilise my DAT machine somehow (reads/writes ID's but not sure if this is 'real' timecode or not....but that's for another thread!).

Then do the final export in whatever codec you prefer.

I have no preference at the moment (basically because I really can't discern between them at the moment); I'm soon to start on a personal project (short documentary on a photographer friend of mine) - will hopefully be shot in HDV 720p then finally transferred to DVD (I assume I would use another codec if footage from this where to be used on a website for example?...I'll figure out and read up on DVD studio also).

Really appreciate your advice David.

[Drew Curran]

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

1/ Just set the "Easy Setup" to "HDV - 720p25", then capture and edit away. Then do the final export in whatever codec you prefer.

2/ If there are problems with capturing in HDV - 720p25 which aren't resolving (even after shortening the pre-roll and post-roll settings) then capture and work in "HDV - Apple Intermediate Codec" ...

David
Thanks for this.

Andrew

[David Scattergood]

I'm due to start some new corporate shooting in 720p25 later this week, so then I'll be able to speak from experience, rather than theory. But I am intending to (and would recommend) capturing natively. Just set the "Easy Setup" to "HDV - 720p25", then capture and edit away.

How are you getting on with this David? Any noticeable problems with native 25p via FCP (especially short clips where drop out would be devastating)?
Cheers.

[Peter Ford]

Hi everyone- this post has been interested to read- the company i work for have been having all the same issues with our gy-hd101.

I was wondering if anyone has had the same problem of loosing the begining of clips, when using JVC's own hdv tape deck?

We're trying to find a viable way to work with this camera- most of the workarounds take too long for the speed we need to work at.

[Gary Williams]

Originally Posted by Peter Ford

Hi everyone- this post has been interested to read- the company i work for have been having all the same issues with our gy-hd101.

I was wondering if anyone has had the same problem of loosing the begining of clips, when using JVC's own hdv tape deck?

We're trying to find a viable way to work with this camera- most of the workarounds take too long for the speed we need to work at.

Every one is having this problem and I have yet to hear of a viable work around besides it being fixed by Apple or JVC I would be very interested in hearing of a solution my self if somebody has one. I would also like to know if people are having these problems in Avid Liquid, Canopus, MatroxRT. X2 ect......is this an apple problem or a JVC problem? If other software is not having these problems with JVC than I would assume it is a problem with the Apple software.

[Gary Williams]

I believe this post by Tim Dashwood in another Thread answers the question!

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....8&postcount=35

[David Knaggs]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

How are you getting on with this David? Any noticeable problems with native 25p via FCP (especially short clips where drop out would be devastating)?
Cheers.

Hi David.

I captured the footage last week in HDV - 720p25 and it was successful (i.e. I got all of my footage captured and into the timeline). It was a lovely feeling to finally be editing natively!

In all of the footage I shot, I allowed a pre-roll of at least 10 seconds and a post-roll of at least 5 seconds (that's pretty easy to control in a corporate shoot).

The capturing was not smooth however. I'm currently checking over my capturing workflow (especially in light of Tim's post earlier today on another thread!) as that may have contributed to the difficulties in capturing.

The problem was rather strange (intermittent). For example, I captured one continuous take of about 3 minutes and it made it into two separate movies with a seven second gap in between.

So I went back and tried to capture it again and it captured the whole thing perfectly. (Go figure!)

On any later capturing where it split the take with a seven second gap, I simply went back and captured only that seven-second piece of footage (with a few seconds coverage on either side) and then dropped it into the sequence. (This was easy to do because we are finally working with timecode!)

So, in that way, I was able to capture it all successfully.

The thing I'm concentrating on now is how to eliminate these mid-take gaps by:
1/ Checking over my capturing workflow (especially in light of Tim's post) and
2/ Looking into the firmware on my camera. I got my camera 15 months ago and haven't had any firmware updates (the camera's always worked fine in shooting and editing), but I'll contact my local JVC rep next week and check for any firmware updates relevant to FCP 5.1.2

As you've only recently gotten your camera, your firmware may already be up-to-date. (?)

Also, the reason for my delay in giving you feedback was because I never got around to testing that theoretical set-up for capturing in "HDV - AIC" for 25p. So I just finished testing it half an hour ago and unfortunately that set-up didn't work (it recorded the video at 50 fps with the audio at normal speed [but only half the audio was recorded]). I tried a few different configurations but no luck so far (all video at 50 fps). If I figure out a workable solution for this I'll let you know.

But the most important thing to bear in mind is that you CAN capture and edit natively (if you get gaps just go back and capture that missing portion). The key is allowing sufficient pre-roll and post-roll. If you are in a situation where you can't always do that (like shooting wildlife) and you need those first few seconds, capture those first seconds in DVHSCap, turn it into a Quicktime with MPEG Streamclip (I recommend you export it as Uncompressed - as it's only a few seconds long it shouldn't take up too much disc space) drag it into your native sequence, render it and edit away.

[David Scattergood]

Cheers David - I'll endeavour to keep long pre and post rolls for starters.

Am I right in suggesting that you can't capture HDV-AIC (Nigel Cooper may have mentioned this on the other thread) for 25p? I'm guessing that this is one of the apple issues being discusses and not JVC?

Are you using the 'log and capture' function rather than 'capture now'? To be honest, I'm just reading up on that - I may give this a try (though it will take much longer) as it's good practice despite whether or not native capture is working.

But the most important thing to bear in mind is that you CAN capture and edit natively (if you get gaps just go back and capture that missing portion). The key is allowing sufficient pre-roll and post-roll. If you are in a situation where you can't always do that (like shooting wildlife) and you need those first few seconds, capture those first seconds in DVHSCap, turn it into a Quicktime with MPEG Streamclip (I recommend you export it as Uncompressed - as it's only a few seconds long it shouldn't take up too much disc space) drag it into your native sequence, render it and edit away.

...and there is no noticeable difference in image when you mix native capture with the DVHSCap workflow?

Thanks fella.

[Robert Castiglione]

Looking into the firmware on my camera. I got my camera 15 months ago and haven't had any firmware updates (the camera's always worked fine in shooting and editing), but I'll contact my local JVC rep next week and check for any firmware updates relevant to FCP 5.1.2

David, I dont think that it has anything to do with this. I just bought a HD111 with latest firmware updates and it does exactly the same thing as you described. I am in the middle of shooting a big project and committed to shooting in 25P and am resigned to spending many late nights dealing with this disappointing problem using some of the workarounds described.

Rob