GY-HD100: HDV to PAL SD in FinalCut at DVinfo.net

Joel Lehmann · April 16th, 2006, 01:15 AM

Let me warn you that I'm more ignorant than most people here.
That's why I'm here to ask.

I am in Tajikistan to shoot two different projects with the GY-HD101E.
One should be delivered in both a SD version and a HDV version. I will be edited in Adobe Premiere Pro (1.5.1) - Premiere is the one and only NLE used in this country in broadcast contexts.

I don't see any problem there (except for the fact that we only have a trial version of the cineform plugin so far - but it seems to work well for capturing).

For Project#2, SD as delivery format is good enough. However, I would prefer to shoot it in HDV, so that I can use some of the same footage for Project#1 in HighDef.

Projecy#2 has to be edited on FCP 5 on my powerbook G4. Now - is there a way to shoot in HDV 720p25 and use that source to edit in SD PAL in FCP?

I have been searching the threads here and so far it seems that the only solution would be to buy LumiereHD. Is that stillso? But then again, the Powerbook might be too slow anyway, so I might better froget abouit it all and just shoot Project#2 in SD.

Jeff Patnaude · April 17th, 2006, 10:53 AM

I can only comment on the FCP part of your question(s).
Nattress makes a conversion plug-in which should work well for you:

<http://www.nattress.com/Products/standardsconversion/standardsconversion.htm>

You should be able to edit and output to whatever you need.
Let us know how it goes.

Jeff Patnaude

Joel Lehmann · April 17th, 2006, 09:32 PM

Dear Jeff

Can you explain me how the workflow would be? Suppose I shoot in HDV 25p (with the JVC) - then the plugin StandardConversion would not help me to capture with FCP, and the way I have interpreted the forum so far, all I can do is capture without Sound or work with LumiereHD...or is there something I'm not understanding (I hope so - that would be good news)?

Regards
Joël
---------------
Quote from their internet site:

"The Standards Conversion plugins does:

NTSC 60i to PAL
PAL 50i to NTSC
NTSC 30p to PAL
PAL 25p to NTSC
NTSC to 24p
24p to NTSC
60p to 24p
24pAdvanced to 24pNormal
Film Source NTSC to PAL
PAL to 24p via remove 1 field every half second method
24p PAL to PAL via add 1 field every half second method"

Jeff Patnaude · April 18th, 2006, 06:18 PM

Graham Nattress is a regular on these boards (mispelled name-sorry).
He would be better-able to tell you how it would work. My understanding is that you would do the edit, and then render out the movie in PAL format.

Sorry I cant be more specific.

Jeff Patnaude

David Knaggs · April 19th, 2006, 06:57 AM

Hi Joel.

Yes, there is a way to shoot in HDV 720p25 and use that source to edit in SD PAL in FCP.

And yes, there is a way to do it on your Powerbook G4.

And no, you don’t need Lumiere HD to do it.

And yes, this workflow will cost you nothing.

I bought my GY-HD101E last July and found that Frederic was several months away from even coming up with a beta version of Lumiere HD. As I had to immediately shoot some corporate projects and part of a TV pilot with the camera, I came up with the following workflow. There may be better workflows, but this one actually worked quite well at the time.

CAPTURE:
After you shoot your project in HDV 25p (and I recommend the JVC “Pro HD” tapes for shooting as they give far less drop-outs than both the Panasonic tapes and the earlier JVC HD tapes, in my experience), you can capture the footage into your Mac with a free software application from Apple called “DVHSCap”. It is part of the “FireWire SDK 20” package and can be downloaded from this page:

http://developer.apple.com/sdk/#FireWireX

Also, when you capture, note Tim Dashwood’s caution about the correct sequence of connecting your firewire to the camera so you don’t blow your circuitry:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=64873

CONVERSION:
After you use DVHSCap to capture the footage, it is still in “MPEG-2 Transport Stream” format (called “.m2t” files). You now need to convert these files into a format that will be recognized by Final Cut Pro (i.e. into a Quicktime file).

There is free conversion software called “MPEG Streamclip” available from this page:

http://www.squared5.com/svideo/mpeg-streamclip-mac.html

It comes with instructions, but here are some tips:

1. Be sure to fix the timecode breaks after you load each .m2t clip (press “Apple-F”).
2. Select “Export to Quicktime” (Apple-E).
3. Drag the “Quality” slider to 100%.
4. Scroll through the “Compression” codecs and select the one you want. At the time, I used “Apple DVCPRO HD 720p” because I wanted to keep the higher resolution for as long as possible in the workflow (and I downconverted to SD later, in FCP). If your G4 has trouble editing this format (codec) you can simply downconvert to SD right there and then with MPEG Streamclip by selecting either “Apple DV- PAL” or “Apple DVCPRO50 - PAL”. They are both SD (Standard Definition) codecs but in my opinion DVCPRO50 is far superior and I recommend that, even though the files it creates are about twice as big as for the “DV- PAL” codec.
5. Deselect both “Interlaced Scaling” and “Reinterlace Chroma”.
6. Make sure the “Frame Size” is “1280 X 720”.
7. “Frame Rate” - When I did this last year, I think I was using Version 1.5 of MPEG Streamclip and it did not have a “Frame Rate” box. So when it did the conversion to Quicktime, it actually gave you 50 fps (it would duplicate each frame). Then when you dragged the Quicktime into your FCP sequence, FCP would eliminate the excess frames and give you a correct 25 fps. So leaving the “Frame Rate” box empty should give you a Quicktime at 50 fps. This is a “safe” solution and will ensure the motion in your final product is 100% correct, but it will leave you with a file size twice as large as it needs to be.
BEWARE: In January I updated MPEG Streamclip to Version 1.6 which introduced the new “Frame Rate” box. I was editing footage from a current feature film project shot at 24 fps, so I put “24” in the Frame Rate box and found the frame rate conversions were ghastly. It did give you a smaller 24 fps file, but it eliminated some correct frames and gave repeat frames in their place at times. In fact, the more motion there was, it seemed to give even more repeat frames. So I don’t recommend filling in the “Frame Rate” box at all. I ended up buying the “HDVxDV” conversion software for editing 24p. It gives excellent frame rate conversion (a true 24p) but I’m not sure if it does 25p. (Plus HDVxDV has a downside of throwing the audio out of sync each time it goes over a timecode break, because it has no function to fix the timecode breaks.)
NOTE: There is now a newer version (1.7) of MPEG Streamclip, so maybe it will now give a true 25fps if you fill “25” in the Frame Rate box. But be very careful on this point and check it out thoroughly first. (I haven’t had a chance yet.)
8. Click “Make Movie”.

EDIT IN FINAL CUT PRO
Make your sequence either “DV PAL” or “DV50 PAL” (which is DVCPRO50, but FCP calls it “DV 50” for some reason). As you drag each clip in, FCP will render it to both remove the extra frames and downconvert to SD.

That’s the workflow I used.

There are two possible improvements I can think of to that workflow:

1/ Nate Weaver made an excellent post called “On the subject of HD downconversion” which gives more options on how to keep the highest quality and keep the downconversion even later in your workflow. It’s on this page:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=63494

2/ Tim Dashwood gives an excellent rundown of how to edit in “Apple Intermediate Codec” (AIC) on this page:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56015

With my current 24p feature project, I only use steps 12 to 20 of Tim’s workflow (because I still prefer to capture with DVHSCap) plus steps 27-30 plus 31. On step 30, I set my frame rate to 24 rather than 23.98 (because I’m in PAL land and don’t have to worry about converting my footage for playback on NTSC television sets!)

So I would imagine that you could edit in AIC 25p as well (haven’t tried it yet) using MPEG Streamclip to do the AIC conversions, instead of HDVxDV.

Anyway, good luck with your project and I hope this helps with your post-production workflow.

And hopefully Apple will announce support for this camera in 24p and 25p next week at NAB!

Joel Lehmann · August 1st, 2006, 03:40 PM

Dear David

I only saw your detailled reply much later - I somehow didn't have the chance to check the message board regularly when I was in Tajikistan.

Thanks a lot, it will be of great help!

April 16th, 2006, 01:15 AM	#1
Joel Lehmann New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nairobi, Kenya Posts: 5	GY-HD100: HDV to PAL SD in FinalCut Let me warn you that I'm more ignorant than most people here. That's why I'm here to ask. I am in Tajikistan to shoot two different projects with the GY-HD101E. One should be delivered in both a SD version and a HDV version. I will be edited in Adobe Premiere Pro (1.5.1) - Premiere is the one and only NLE used in this country in broadcast contexts. I don't see any problem there (except for the fact that we only have a trial version of the cineform plugin so far - but it seems to work well for capturing). For Project#2, SD as delivery format is good enough. However, I would prefer to shoot it in HDV, so that I can use some of the same footage for Project#1 in HighDef. Projecy#2 has to be edited on FCP 5 on my powerbook G4. Now - is there a way to shoot in HDV 720p25 and use that source to edit in SD PAL in FCP? I have been searching the threads here and so far it seems that the only solution would be to buy LumiereHD. Is that stillso? But then again, the Powerbook might be too slow anyway, so I might better froget abouit it all and just shoot Project#2 in SD.

April 17th, 2006, 10:53 AM	#2
Jeff Patnaude Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Duluth, Georgia Posts: 248	I can only comment on the FCP part of your question(s). Nattress makes a conversion plug-in which should work well for you: <http://www.nattress.com/Products/standardsconversion/standardsconversion.htm> You should be able to edit and output to whatever you need. Let us know how it goes. Jeff Patnaude

April 17th, 2006, 09:32 PM	#3
Joel Lehmann New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nairobi, Kenya Posts: 5	Dear Jeff Can you explain me how the workflow would be? Suppose I shoot in HDV 25p (with the JVC) - then the plugin StandardConversion would not help me to capture with FCP, and the way I have interpreted the forum so far, all I can do is capture without Sound or work with LumiereHD...or is there something I'm not understanding (I hope so - that would be good news)? Regards Joël --------------- Quote from their internet site: "The Standards Conversion plugins does: NTSC 60i to PAL PAL 50i to NTSC NTSC 30p to PAL PAL 25p to NTSC NTSC to 24p 24p to NTSC 60p to 24p 24pAdvanced to 24pNormal Film Source NTSC to PAL PAL to 24p via remove 1 field every half second method 24p PAL to PAL via add 1 field every half second method"

April 18th, 2006, 06:18 PM	#4
Jeff Patnaude Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Duluth, Georgia Posts: 248	Graham Nattress is a regular on these boards (mispelled name-sorry). He would be better-able to tell you how it would work. My understanding is that you would do the edit, and then render out the movie in PAL format. Sorry I cant be more specific. Jeff Patnaude

April 19th, 2006, 06:57 AM	#5
David Knaggs Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 826	Hi Joel. Yes, there is a way to shoot in HDV 720p25 and use that source to edit in SD PAL in FCP. And yes, there is a way to do it on your Powerbook G4. And no, you don’t need Lumiere HD to do it. And yes, this workflow will cost you nothing. I bought my GY-HD101E last July and found that Frederic was several months away from even coming up with a beta version of Lumiere HD. As I had to immediately shoot some corporate projects and part of a TV pilot with the camera, I came up with the following workflow. There may be better workflows, but this one actually worked quite well at the time. CAPTURE: After you shoot your project in HDV 25p (and I recommend the JVC “Pro HD” tapes for shooting as they give far less drop-outs than both the Panasonic tapes and the earlier JVC HD tapes, in my experience), you can capture the footage into your Mac with a free software application from Apple called “DVHSCap”. It is part of the “FireWire SDK 20” package and can be downloaded from this page: http://developer.apple.com/sdk/#FireWireX Also, when you capture, note Tim Dashwood’s caution about the correct sequence of connecting your firewire to the camera so you don’t blow your circuitry: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=64873 CONVERSION: After you use DVHSCap to capture the footage, it is still in “MPEG-2 Transport Stream” format (called “.m2t” files). You now need to convert these files into a format that will be recognized by Final Cut Pro (i.e. into a Quicktime file). There is free conversion software called “MPEG Streamclip” available from this page: http://www.squared5.com/svideo/mpeg-streamclip-mac.html It comes with instructions, but here are some tips: 1. Be sure to fix the timecode breaks after you load each .m2t clip (press “Apple-F”). 2. Select “Export to Quicktime” (Apple-E). 3. Drag the “Quality” slider to 100%. 4. Scroll through the “Compression” codecs and select the one you want. At the time, I used “Apple DVCPRO HD 720p” because I wanted to keep the higher resolution for as long as possible in the workflow (and I downconverted to SD later, in FCP). If your G4 has trouble editing this format (codec) you can simply downconvert to SD right there and then with MPEG Streamclip by selecting either “Apple DV- PAL” or “Apple DVCPRO50 - PAL”. They are both SD (Standard Definition) codecs but in my opinion DVCPRO50 is far superior and I recommend that, even though the files it creates are about twice as big as for the “DV- PAL” codec. 5. Deselect both “Interlaced Scaling” and “Reinterlace Chroma”. 6. Make sure the “Frame Size” is “1280 X 720”. 7. “Frame Rate” - When I did this last year, I think I was using Version 1.5 of MPEG Streamclip and it did not have a “Frame Rate” box. So when it did the conversion to Quicktime, it actually gave you 50 fps (it would duplicate each frame). Then when you dragged the Quicktime into your FCP sequence, FCP would eliminate the excess frames and give you a correct 25 fps. So leaving the “Frame Rate” box empty should give you a Quicktime at 50 fps. This is a “safe” solution and will ensure the motion in your final product is 100% correct, but it will leave you with a file size twice as large as it needs to be. BEWARE: In January I updated MPEG Streamclip to Version 1.6 which introduced the new “Frame Rate” box. I was editing footage from a current feature film project shot at 24 fps, so I put “24” in the Frame Rate box and found the frame rate conversions were ghastly. It did give you a smaller 24 fps file, but it eliminated some correct frames and gave repeat frames in their place at times. In fact, the more motion there was, it seemed to give even more repeat frames. So I don’t recommend filling in the “Frame Rate” box at all. I ended up buying the “HDVxDV” conversion software for editing 24p. It gives excellent frame rate conversion (a true 24p) but I’m not sure if it does 25p. (Plus HDVxDV has a downside of throwing the audio out of sync each time it goes over a timecode break, because it has no function to fix the timecode breaks.) NOTE: There is now a newer version (1.7) of MPEG Streamclip, so maybe it will now give a true 25fps if you fill “25” in the Frame Rate box. But be very careful on this point and check it out thoroughly first. (I haven’t had a chance yet.) 8. Click “Make Movie”. EDIT IN FINAL CUT PRO Make your sequence either “DV PAL” or “DV50 PAL” (which is DVCPRO50, but FCP calls it “DV 50” for some reason). As you drag each clip in, FCP will render it to both remove the extra frames and downconvert to SD. That’s the workflow I used. There are two possible improvements I can think of to that workflow: 1/ Nate Weaver made an excellent post called “On the subject of HD downconversion” which gives more options on how to keep the highest quality and keep the downconversion even later in your workflow. It’s on this page: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=63494 2/ Tim Dashwood gives an excellent rundown of how to edit in “Apple Intermediate Codec” (AIC) on this page: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56015 With my current 24p feature project, I only use steps 12 to 20 of Tim’s workflow (because I still prefer to capture with DVHSCap) plus steps 27-30 plus 31. On step 30, I set my frame rate to 24 rather than 23.98 (because I’m in PAL land and don’t have to worry about converting my footage for playback on NTSC television sets!) So I would imagine that you could edit in AIC 25p as well (haven’t tried it yet) using MPEG Streamclip to do the AIC conversions, instead of HDVxDV. Anyway, good luck with your project and I hope this helps with your post-production workflow. And hopefully Apple will announce support for this camera in 24p and 25p next week at NAB!

August 1st, 2006, 03:40 PM	#6
Joel Lehmann New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nairobi, Kenya Posts: 5	Dear David I only saw your detailled reply much later - I somehow didn't have the chance to check the message board regularly when I was in Tajikistan. Thanks a lot, it will be of great help!