16x9 sequence from 4:3 footage at DVinfo.net

Dan Shallenberger · February 24th, 2006, 09:52 PM

I have done some searches and didn't find a specific answer... please forgive me if this has been hashed out many times. FYI, I'm using Final Cut Studio, so FCP5 and DVSP4 with QT 7 pro on a dual-core G5 with 10.4.5.

I have 4:3 footage that I recorded from my pd170, captured as 4:3 clips, and edited in a 4:3 sequence. What I'm trying to do is get that sequence to export as 16:9. I made a separate sequence and checked the Anamorphic 16x9 box. Then I dropped in the 4:3 sequence in the timeline and scaled it up to fit both sides. When I export that sequence, it opens in Quicktime as 4:3, which I expected. But, after bringing it into DVDSP, it is still 4:3 and squished horizontally. No matter what I check in DVDSP, it is still 4:3. I even burned a DVD thinking it would letterbox on a tv, but it didn't. When I capture footage that has been recorded in 16:9, it seems to work fine.

I've read through the manual pages and searched and everything I find matches what I'm doing, but it won't work for me. Can someone outline step by step what to do, or point me to some info that might help?

Thanks for any help!
Dan

Dan Shallenberger · February 24th, 2006, 10:17 PM

Ok... I found something that helped.

When I switch to graphical mode in DVDSP and click on the linked track of a 16x9 video clip, I can then select 16x9 letterbox in the Inspector. It then plays correctly.

So, let me see if I have this all correct: If I have an anamorphic sequence and export it as a quicktime movie, then there is some sort of 16:9 "flag" set in the file. If I open this file in qt7, it doesn't display as a 16:9 because of a bug or something in qt7? But, no matter what I do with that file, other than manually resizing it, it maintains that 16:9 "flag"?

And why is it the when I select in DVDSP4 16:9 Pan & Scan, it doesn't play correctly, but if I select 16:9 Letterbox, it does? I appologize if these are basic questions, but sometimes descriptions in the words of normal people can make more sense to me than technical descriptions.

Thanks so much!!
Dan

Nate Schmidt · February 25th, 2006, 07:23 AM

I think, but could be wrong that pan scan crops the video so it fills the entire screen where as letterbox scales it to fit the screen which results in black bars on the top and bottom.

Boyd Ostroff · February 25th, 2006, 07:59 AM

The 16:9 thing with Quicktime isn't really a "bug," but it's just a missing capability. Quicktime doesn't handle anamorphic 16:9, it displays everything with square pixels. And in fact, this means that it doesn't treat 4:3 correctly either. If you export a 4:3 sequence as a Quicktime file and then watch it on your computer screen you will have a 720x480 file. But do the math: 720/480=1.50 but 4:3 should have an aspect ratio of 1.33. So everything is going to be stretched too wide horizontally when you playback 4:3 on your computer, and it will be stretched too tall vertically for 16:9. But none of this will be a problem if the 4:3 file is viewed on a 4:3 TV or if the 16:9 file is viewed on a widescreen TV.

But your problems are definitely with DVDSP - sounds like you did all the right things in FCP. Sorry, I can't help there because I don't use DVDSP...

Jason Varner · February 25th, 2006, 01:38 PM

Took me a second but here it is. Import and edit your footage normally in a 4:3 timeline. If you shot with 16:9 safe area nest the sequence and apply video filters>matte>widescreen to the nested sequence. If you didn't shoot with a 16:9 safe area apply the same filter to the first clip in you sequence. Select it and hit command c then select all other clips and from the edit pulldown menu select paste attributes the click filters. This is nice because it lets you fine tune the letterbox on each shot if you didn't shoot 16:9 safe. Export quickitime movie using current settings or go straight to compressor. Once you have the movie in compressor and choose your compression (I think quicktime using ntsc-dvcpro keeps it relatively native) open the geometry tab inside inspector. Crop the required number of pixels from the top and bottom to fit you letterbox and pas that on to your frame size. For example if you crop 48 pixels from the top and bottom your frame size needs to be changed to 720X384. It may sound a little confusing but this will help to preserve the integrity of you footage by introducing the fewest stages of compression.

Dan Shallenberger · February 27th, 2006, 11:21 AM

Thanks, everyone, for your replies! You've been very helpful. I did end up getting it all to work in DVDSP. I had to select the actual track with my anamorphic video on it, and then it would display correctly on a 4:3 tv AND a widescreen digital tv.

Boyd, seems if Photoshop could display non-square pixels, that Quicktime would too. I'm somewhat confused on the non-square pixel thing anyhow. I know that a 4:3 tv pixel is not square (who knows why?), and that computer screen *are* square pixels. I thought, though, that an image for a tv is actually 640x480, rather than 720x480. I know that dv resolution is 720x480, but I thought it was because the actual tv pixels were non-square, that when you display a dv image on a tv, it shows up correctly at 640x480 because the tv pixels are wider. Basically, I thought that 720 square pixels on a computer screen was equivalent to 640 non-square pixels on a tv. I know what I saying doesn't make sense. Can you explain what is up with the 640x480 vs 720x480, and where I'm wrong in my thinking?

Also, are the pixels in HDV footage square?

Thanks again!

Dan

Boyd Ostroff · February 27th, 2006, 03:24 PM

QuickTime and Photoshop are two completely different animals (and so are Apple and Adobe :-) so there isn't much reason to assume any linkage between them.

Actually you have it backwards.640x480 is 4:3 (do the math) on a square pixel monitor. DV uses 720x480 and that will display properly on a TV monitor with non square pixels,but wll be stretched horizontally on a square pixel monitor.

1080i HDV uses non-square pixels with a frame size of 1440x1080 but needs to be stretched to 1920x1080 for viewing. 720p HDV uses square pixels at 1280x720. Unlike standard definition, high def TV's have square pixels.

Yeah, it does get confusing... :-)

February 24th, 2006, 09:52 PM	#1
Dan Shallenberger Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 253	16x9 sequence from 4:3 footage I have done some searches and didn't find a specific answer... please forgive me if this has been hashed out many times. FYI, I'm using Final Cut Studio, so FCP5 and DVSP4 with QT 7 pro on a dual-core G5 with 10.4.5. I have 4:3 footage that I recorded from my pd170, captured as 4:3 clips, and edited in a 4:3 sequence. What I'm trying to do is get that sequence to export as 16:9. I made a separate sequence and checked the Anamorphic 16x9 box. Then I dropped in the 4:3 sequence in the timeline and scaled it up to fit both sides. When I export that sequence, it opens in Quicktime as 4:3, which I expected. But, after bringing it into DVDSP, it is still 4:3 and squished horizontally. No matter what I check in DVDSP, it is still 4:3. I even burned a DVD thinking it would letterbox on a tv, but it didn't. When I capture footage that has been recorded in 16:9, it seems to work fine. I've read through the manual pages and searched and everything I find matches what I'm doing, but it won't work for me. Can someone outline step by step what to do, or point me to some info that might help? Thanks for any help! Dan

February 25th, 2006, 07:23 AM	#3
Nate Schmidt Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Welland ON Posts: 515	I think, but could be wrong that pan scan crops the video so it fills the entire screen where as letterbox scales it to fit the screen which results in black bars on the top and bottom. __________________ "We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."

February 25th, 2006, 01:38 PM	#5
Jason Varner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 119	Workflow Took me a second but here it is. Import and edit your footage normally in a 4:3 timeline. If you shot with 16:9 safe area nest the sequence and apply video filters>matte>widescreen to the nested sequence. If you didn't shoot with a 16:9 safe area apply the same filter to the first clip in you sequence. Select it and hit command c then select all other clips and from the edit pulldown menu select paste attributes the click filters. This is nice because it lets you fine tune the letterbox on each shot if you didn't shoot 16:9 safe. Export quickitime movie using current settings or go straight to compressor. Once you have the movie in compressor and choose your compression (I think quicktime using ntsc-dvcpro keeps it relatively native) open the geometry tab inside inspector. Crop the required number of pixels from the top and bottom to fit you letterbox and pas that on to your frame size. For example if you crop 48 pixels from the top and bottom your frame size needs to be changed to 720X384. It may sound a little confusing but this will help to preserve the integrity of you footage by introducing the fewest stages of compression.

February 24th, 2006, 10:17 PM	#2
Dan Shallenberger Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 253	Ok... I found something that helped. When I switch to graphical mode in DVDSP and click on the linked track of a 16x9 video clip, I can then select 16x9 letterbox in the Inspector. It then plays correctly. So, let me see if I have this all correct: If I have an anamorphic sequence and export it as a quicktime movie, then there is some sort of 16:9 "flag" set in the file. If I open this file in qt7, it doesn't display as a 16:9 because of a bug or something in qt7? But, no matter what I do with that file, other than manually resizing it, it maintains that 16:9 "flag"? And why is it the when I select in DVDSP4 16:9 Pan & Scan, it doesn't play correctly, but if I select 16:9 Letterbox, it does? I appologize if these are basic questions, but sometimes descriptions in the words of normal people can make more sense to me than technical descriptions. Thanks so much!! Dan

February 25th, 2006, 07:59 AM	#4
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,801	The 16:9 thing with Quicktime isn't really a "bug," but it's just a missing capability. Quicktime doesn't handle anamorphic 16:9, it displays everything with square pixels. And in fact, this means that it doesn't treat 4:3 correctly either. If you export a 4:3 sequence as a Quicktime file and then watch it on your computer screen you will have a 720x480 file. But do the math: 720/480=1.50 but 4:3 should have an aspect ratio of 1.33. So everything is going to be stretched too wide horizontally when you playback 4:3 on your computer, and it will be stretched too tall vertically for 16:9. But none of this will be a problem if the 4:3 file is viewed on a 4:3 TV or if the 16:9 file is viewed on a widescreen TV. But your problems are definitely with DVDSP - sounds like you did all the right things in FCP. Sorry, I can't help there because I don't use DVDSP...

February 27th, 2006, 11:21 AM	#6
Dan Shallenberger Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 253	Thanks, everyone, for your replies! You've been very helpful. I did end up getting it all to work in DVDSP. I had to select the actual track with my anamorphic video on it, and then it would display correctly on a 4:3 tv AND a widescreen digital tv. Boyd, seems if Photoshop could display non-square pixels, that Quicktime would too. I'm somewhat confused on the non-square pixel thing anyhow. I know that a 4:3 tv pixel is not square (who knows why?), and that computer screen are square pixels. I thought, though, that an image for a tv is actually 640x480, rather than 720x480. I know that dv resolution is 720x480, but I thought it was because the actual tv pixels were non-square, that when you display a dv image on a tv, it shows up correctly at 640x480 because the tv pixels are wider. Basically, I thought that 720 square pixels on a computer screen was equivalent to 640 non-square pixels on a tv. I know what I saying doesn't make sense. Can you explain what is up with the 640x480 vs 720x480, and where I'm wrong in my thinking? Also, are the pixels in HDV footage square? Thanks again! Dan

February 27th, 2006, 03:24 PM	#7
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,801	QuickTime and Photoshop are two completely different animals (and so are Apple and Adobe :-) so there isn't much reason to assume any linkage between them. Actually you have it backwards.640x480 is 4:3 (do the math) on a square pixel monitor. DV uses 720x480 and that will display properly on a TV monitor with non square pixels,but wll be stretched horizontally on a square pixel monitor. 1080i HDV uses non-square pixels with a frame size of 1440x1080 but needs to be stretched to 1920x1080 for viewing. 720p HDV uses square pixels at 1280x720. Unlike standard definition, high def TV's have square pixels. Yeah, it does get confusing... :-)