720P60 to PAL at DVinfo.net

Sergio Perez · February 5th, 2006, 02:36 AM

I'm planning on purchasing an HVX. The camera is available here where I live, which is a PAL country. However, the camera available for purchase is an NTSC model. What I want to know is that, theoretically, a 960v 720 picture should be more than enough for Pal downconversion. Since I'll be shooting mainly HD (I have a DVX 100a for dv), I figured it shouldn't be much of a problem to film with the ntsc camera, with the extra 10 fps in 60p.

This question is for the FInal Cut experts out there:

Do I lose any quality downconverting 720p 60 to Pal?

Any problems with converting 720p 24 to Pal?

Graeme Natress, any easy solution for doing this with full quality with your Final Cut plugins?

Ben De Rydt · February 5th, 2006, 05:25 AM

My advice would be to pass the deal and wait for a 50Hz (25p, 50p) HVX instead. This will this solve all your post production troubles and you won't have problems with warranties either.

Jemore Santos · February 5th, 2006, 09:09 AM

Well theres no way of converting it to HDVpal so if you want you can buy the NTSC HVX and export it to a PAL DVCproHD 72050i/p format.

Sergio Perez · February 5th, 2006, 11:37 AM

Ben, I can get it guaranteed, so that's not a problem. I'm only affraid of any quality loss when converted to Pal...

Jerome, I think there really is no dvcpro hd codec in Pal yet. I think the varicam is 60hz... How do varicam footage gets converted to Pal?

Graeme Nattress · February 5th, 2006, 11:45 AM

The Varicam will shoot at 25p, the HVX200 will not.

My conversion plugin does 60i to PAL, not 60p to PAL, but there's no reason why you can't convert 60p to 60i, then convert to PAL. If there's a real need I'll see about doing 60p to PAL though.

Graeme

Sergio Perez · February 5th, 2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress

The Varicam will shoot at 25p, the HVX200 will not.

My conversion plugin does 60i to PAL, not 60p to PAL, but there's no reason why you can't convert 60p to 60i, then convert to PAL. If there's a real need I'll see about doing 60p to PAL though.

Graeme

Graeme, If you do this plug in (for both 24p and 60p), and this doesn't degrade picture quality, than I'm sold on both your plugin and the camera! (As well as thousands of fellow Pal users who are really upset with Panasonic Pal policy!)

EDIT- Coverting 60p to i will it lose the P quality of the picture, right? So this will make for a 50hz picture without the P feature of it (half frame terror with poorer definition, right?)

Graeme Nattress · February 5th, 2006, 12:21 PM

I already do 60p to 24p. Actually, FCP doesn't do this too badly itself, but mine offers more control - this is what Fox were using on the baseball.

I'll have to think about the 60p direct to PAL though. Do you want to convert to 50i or 25p though?

Graeme

Sergio Perez · February 5th, 2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress

I already do 60p to 24p. Actually, FCP doesn't do this too badly itself, but mine offers more control - this is what Fox were using on the baseball.

I'll have to think about the 60p direct to PAL though. Do you want to convert to 50i or 25p though?

Graeme

Graeme, Can the Pal signal display 50p? I would like to have the option of doing both 50i or P (when filming 720p 60) and 25p (From 720p 24 footage). I'm mainly asking for 720p compatibility, but I'm sure many fellow Pal users who are thinking of going ntsc would like for this to work on 1080i too. (I don't feel this is the best shooting option for the HVX, tough)

EDIT (again) - This doesn't exist yet, but if you could also do a plugin to Convert 720p 60 to 720p 50, this would be perfect for future HD distribution ( I really would like to know how doEuropean channels broadcast HD now since much of the material is shot in either 60i or 24p...)

Graeme Nattress · February 5th, 2006, 12:33 PM

24p to 25p is easy - you can do that today with Cinema Tools and it's "conform" function. Works just like a film to PAL telecine - speed up 4%.

I don't see any reason why you can't dislay PAL at 50p, but I don't know of anyone broadcasting that format. For non-HD PAL, you're limited to 25p or 50i. I wonder if the 60i to 50i in my converter would directly take you from 60p to 50p - will have to try it, but I think it will get contaminated with interlacing....

1080i60 to 1080i50 works today. It's only the progressive 60p and 50p I don't handle.

Graeme

Sergio Perez · February 5th, 2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress

24p to 25p is easy - you can do that today with Cinema Tools and it's "conform" function. Works just like a film to PAL telecine - speed up 4%.

I don't see any reason why you can't dislay PAL at 50p, but I don't know of anyone broadcasting that format. For non-HD PAL, you're limited to 25p or 50i. I wonder if the 60i to 50i in my converter would directly take you from 60p to 50p - will have to try it, but I think it will get contaminated with interlacing....

1080i60 to 1080i50 works today. It's only the progressive 60p and 50p I don't handle.

Graeme

So, Graeme, from 1080i60 to 50i I don't lose nothing in therms of picture quality, right? ( i know there's a small resolution booth in spec sheets on Pal 1080i, but this will not be much noticeable in my view)

How about in 720p? can you do something similar, losless so that we have the option of a quality pal conversion?

Also, can cinematools "conform" 720p 24 footage already to either 720p 25 and Pal 25p? Any quality loss? What's your personal take on this? Do you think I'll be loosing much for skipping the Pal camera ? I know I'm not going to film anything in SD, since HD is the way to go with these new generation of cameras and also the way of future proofing your work. I also know th limitations of shooting on flourescent lights, but this is easily workable with different shutter speeds. ( feel free to PM me- just click my name and send me an e-mail if you feel this is not appropriate for the forum.)

Once again, I'm not gray importing the camera- this option is being offered to me from the distributor.

Graeme Nattress · February 5th, 2006, 01:09 PM

You will loose going from 1080i60 to 1080i50 - you're throwing away fields/frames, and even the best converter will loose something there. I find 1080i50 to 1080i60 works much better. 1080p25 to 1080i60 is very very good.

72-p24 to 720p25 is totally lossless. Other than it's sped up a bit.

Sergio Perez · February 5th, 2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress

You will loose going from 1080i60 to 1080i50 - you're throwing away fields/frames, and even the best converter will loose something there. I find 1080i50 to 1080i60 works much better. 1080p25 to 1080i60 is very very good.

72-p24 to 720p25 is totally lossless. Other than it's sped up a bit.

Graeme, Will you do some testing on the 729p60 to 50 conversion? If this is losless, than there shouldn't be a problem working just in 720p (The JVC works in 720p and looks better and sharper than the Z1 in Big screen blowup...)

And 1080i 24p (ntsc) converts losless to Pal 1080i 25p? SInce there's no use at least for me to shoot 1080i60 ( I prefer a lot more 720p 60), than I'm certainly going to take the plunge right now!

Graeme Nattress · February 6th, 2006, 07:31 AM

The JVC is 720p24 or 720p25 or 720p30 only though.

I've got some Varicam 60p footage though I can play around with.

Graeme

Sergio Perez · February 6th, 2006, 09:37 PM

Graeme, I've tried messing around with the already available dvcpro hd footage on the net. I tried to convert a 720/24p File to Pal, and FCP gives me the option to convert to either 24p@ 25 or even dvPal 23.98; and even dvpal 24p. The problem is, the only footage that can stream via firewire to my camera is 24@25, and there's always some kind of small stutter (like there's an extra frame added). In therms of picture quality, there's no loss, and looks pretty good on my Pal monitor! The problem is with the small stuttering in the conversion...

As for converting DVCpro HD 60P to Pal, I haven't tried it yet. I'll try it latter today.

EDIT- Ist there any non linear editing sistem that can work natively with dvcpro HD at either 1080 50i, 720P50 or 25P?

Dylan Pank · February 7th, 2006, 07:20 AM

Final Cut Pro will work at 1080 50i and 720 25p, I know I've done it, but it's not a preset.

Can't get it to go with 720 50p at all though, but I'm still on FCP 4.5

February 5th, 2006, 02:36 AM	#1
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	720P60 to PAL I'm planning on purchasing an HVX. The camera is available here where I live, which is a PAL country. However, the camera available for purchase is an NTSC model. What I want to know is that, theoretically, a 960v 720 picture should be more than enough for Pal downconversion. Since I'll be shooting mainly HD (I have a DVX 100a for dv), I figured it shouldn't be much of a problem to film with the ntsc camera, with the extra 10 fps in 60p. This question is for the FInal Cut experts out there: Do I lose any quality downconverting 720p 60 to Pal? Any problems with converting 720p 24 to Pal? Graeme Natress, any easy solution for doing this with full quality with your Final Cut plugins? __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

February 5th, 2006, 05:25 AM	#2
Ben De Rydt Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 139	My advice would be to pass the deal and wait for a 50Hz (25p, 50p) HVX instead. This will this solve all your post production troubles and you won't have problems with warranties either. __________________ Please keep in mind that English is not my native language.

February 5th, 2006, 09:09 AM	#3
Jemore Santos Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Tokyo/Sydney Posts: 297	Well theres no way of converting it to HDVpal so if you want you can buy the NTSC HVX and export it to a PAL DVCproHD 72050i/p format. __________________ "eyes through a digital world"

February 5th, 2006, 11:37 AM	#4
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Ben, I can get it guaranteed, so that's not a problem. I'm only affraid of any quality loss when converted to Pal... Jerome, I think there really is no dvcpro hd codec in Pal yet. I think the varicam is 60hz... How do varicam footage gets converted to Pal? __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

February 5th, 2006, 11:45 AM	#5
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	The Varicam will shoot at 25p, the HVX200 will not. My conversion plugin does 60i to PAL, not 60p to PAL, but there's no reason why you can't convert 60p to 60i, then convert to PAL. If there's a real need I'll see about doing 60p to PAL though. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 5th, 2006, 12:21 PM	#7
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	I already do 60p to 24p. Actually, FCP doesn't do this too badly itself, but mine offers more control - this is what Fox were using on the baseball. I'll have to think about the 60p direct to PAL though. Do you want to convert to 50i or 25p though? Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 5th, 2006, 12:33 PM	#9
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	24p to 25p is easy - you can do that today with Cinema Tools and it's "conform" function. Works just like a film to PAL telecine - speed up 4%. I don't see any reason why you can't dislay PAL at 50p, but I don't know of anyone broadcasting that format. For non-HD PAL, you're limited to 25p or 50i. I wonder if the 60i to 50i in my converter would directly take you from 60p to 50p - will have to try it, but I think it will get contaminated with interlacing.... 1080i60 to 1080i50 works today. It's only the progressive 60p and 50p I don't handle. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 5th, 2006, 01:09 PM	#11
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	You will loose going from 1080i60 to 1080i50 - you're throwing away fields/frames, and even the best converter will loose something there. I find 1080i50 to 1080i60 works much better. 1080p25 to 1080i60 is very very good. 72-p24 to 720p25 is totally lossless. Other than it's sped up a bit. __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 6th, 2006, 07:31 AM	#13
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	The JVC is 720p24 or 720p25 or 720p30 only though. I've got some Varicam 60p footage though I can play around with. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 6th, 2006, 09:37 PM	#14
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Graeme, I've tried messing around with the already available dvcpro hd footage on the net. I tried to convert a 720/24p File to Pal, and FCP gives me the option to convert to either 24p@ 25 or even dvPal 23.98; and even dvpal 24p. The problem is, the only footage that can stream via firewire to my camera is 24@25, and there's always some kind of small stutter (like there's an extra frame added). In therms of picture quality, there's no loss, and looks pretty good on my Pal monitor! The problem is with the small stuttering in the conversion... As for converting DVCpro HD 60P to Pal, I haven't tried it yet. I'll try it latter today. EDIT- Ist there any non linear editing sistem that can work natively with dvcpro HD at either 1080 50i, 720P50 or 25P? __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will. Last edited by Sergio Perez; February 7th, 2006 at 12:37 AM.

February 7th, 2006, 07:20 AM	#15
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	Final Cut Pro will work at 1080 50i and 720 25p, I know I've done it, but it's not a preset. Can't get it to go with 720 50p at all though, but I'm still on FCP 4.5