720P60 to PAL

Sergio Perez · February 8th, 2006, 10:48 PM

Graeme, any update on the 60p front?

Graeme Nattress · February 9th, 2006, 07:52 AM

Not yet. Been a touch busy.....

Graeme

Sergio Perez · February 13th, 2006, 02:33 AM

Graeme, here's another PAL question. This comes from my experience playing videogames from both ntsc and Pal machines. This hasn't been addressed much, and makes me a little bit worried. I remember playing Videogames from ntsc consoles that looked way smoother than their Pal counterparts. In pal, 50hzs the games struggled and looked a lot less smooth (lacked frames). In picture therms, will this not happen? I know the Human eye can see the max of 60fps. SO, if you are giving 50fps in a progressive way (like in videogames) aren't you getting a more slugish motion image? (video reality look will not look as smooth as 60p?)

This question also comes because i'm conserning with the 60p vs 50p question. Theoretically, wouldn't it be better to have More frames for a conversion then less frames? If you had 50p, you had to create more 10p to go to 60P. If you are going from 60p to 50p, you are throwing away 10p but since you had the information anyway, this shouldn't be a problem. Am I correct?

Last question. People that see a 60hz broadcast and immediately change to a 50hz broadcast see a image flicker due to the slower refresh rate. Is this noticeable in a 24p 60hz picture vs a 25p 50hzs picture if you play them in two separate tv's at the same time? It should, shouldn't it? The 60hz footage should look more natural due to the optimal refresh rate, vs the 50hz refresh rate of 25p... Heh, probably this is just too much concern in my part...

Graeme Nattress · February 13th, 2006, 06:50 AM

50hz is just fine. It's above the threshold of smoothness. In a video game, therre may have been something more going on than just frame rate, but I don't know precisely.

It's actually easier to go from a lower frame rate to a higher frame rate, as long as you don't expect the conversion to produce smoothness of motion beyond that was in the source material. If you want to go from 25p to 60i and have it look as smooth as 60i, then that's really hard, but to go from 25p to 60i and have it looks like 25p, then that's very easy indeed, relatively speaking.

People who grow up watching 50hz TV don't see the flicker. And with modern TVs that don't flicker because they're LCD or Plasma based, you don't see filcker at all.

Graeme

February 8th, 2006, 10:48 PM	#16
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Graeme, any update on the 60p front? __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

February 9th, 2006, 07:52 AM	#17
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Not yet. Been a touch busy..... Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 13th, 2006, 02:33 AM	#18
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Graeme, here's another PAL question. This comes from my experience playing videogames from both ntsc and Pal machines. This hasn't been addressed much, and makes me a little bit worried. I remember playing Videogames from ntsc consoles that looked way smoother than their Pal counterparts. In pal, 50hzs the games struggled and looked a lot less smooth (lacked frames). In picture therms, will this not happen? I know the Human eye can see the max of 60fps. SO, if you are giving 50fps in a progressive way (like in videogames) aren't you getting a more slugish motion image? (video reality look will not look as smooth as 60p?) This question also comes because i'm conserning with the 60p vs 50p question. Theoretically, wouldn't it be better to have More frames for a conversion then less frames? If you had 50p, you had to create more 10p to go to 60P. If you are going from 60p to 50p, you are throwing away 10p but since you had the information anyway, this shouldn't be a problem. Am I correct? Last question. People that see a 60hz broadcast and immediately change to a 50hz broadcast see a image flicker due to the slower refresh rate. Is this noticeable in a 24p 60hz picture vs a 25p 50hzs picture if you play them in two separate tv's at the same time? It should, shouldn't it? The 60hz footage should look more natural due to the optimal refresh rate, vs the 50hz refresh rate of 25p... Heh, probably this is just too much concern in my part... __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

February 13th, 2006, 06:50 AM	#19
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	50hz is just fine. It's above the threshold of smoothness. In a video game, therre may have been something more going on than just frame rate, but I don't know precisely. It's actually easier to go from a lower frame rate to a higher frame rate, as long as you don't expect the conversion to produce smoothness of motion beyond that was in the source material. If you want to go from 25p to 60i and have it look as smooth as 60i, then that's really hard, but to go from 25p to 60i and have it looks like 25p, then that's very easy indeed, relatively speaking. People who grow up watching 50hz TV don't see the flicker. And with modern TVs that don't flicker because they're LCD or Plasma based, you don't see filcker at all. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP