Can someone explain Apple's logic at DVinfo.net

Roger Shealy · February 24th, 2011, 06:15 PM

I've been waiting for the update to the new MacBook Pro, which was announced this week as I've been looking to spec out a system after using PC's for the last 30 years:

Apple revamps MacBook Pro line, adds Thunderbolt port | Laptops | MacUser | Macworld

Most of it looks pretty exciting, but then I see they decided at the last minute to switch from NVidia graphics to AMD graphics, meaning no CUDA support for CS5 products. I know there's a lot of bad blood between Apple and Adobe, but doesn't this kind of kick all you Mac guys in the head that need to use AE, PS, and other CS5 tools even if you choose FCP over PPro?

I'm very disappointed. I was looking at finally giving Mac a whirl, but I want to be able to use CUDA acceleration on CS5. This looks like a really bad business decision for professional users. Can someone explain how this decision is good for Apple users?

Gabe Strong · February 24th, 2011, 06:42 PM

You might want to wait and see how the graphics cards work with the new Final Cut Studio.
Just saying, Apple usually looks at how to make the computer works with their OWN software
suite before worrying about Adobe's.
For example, if you are running Motion, the best graphics card is different than if you are running
CS5. Not saying this is the best way, but different programs work better with different cards...

Roger Shealy · February 24th, 2011, 07:40 PM

Seems compromising CS5 is going to put Apple at a tactical disadvantage given it runs on PC and Mac and many on both sides of the fence use AE, PS, and other tools as their first choice. Seems like a bad game of chess forcing allegiance to Apple vs Apple giving users what that want.

I'm not trying to be incendiary, I'm just bewildered. I just fought a battle to get myself and a coworker onto the first Apple trial at our company and now given our work is predominately CS5 I'll most like back out, buy a HP and plow ahead with CS5.

Gabe Strong · February 24th, 2011, 07:46 PM

But forcing allegiance to Apple is what Apple does! Blu Ray (or more accurately very little Blu Ray) support, Apple vs Flash and so on. Not that I'm going anywhere, I can use both FCP and CS5
on a Mac and you can't do that on a PC. That being said, I understand why others would take
a different view and move over to a PC.

Thomas Smet · February 24th, 2011, 09:25 PM

The last time I checked no Nvidia mobile gpu's supported the CS5 CUDA features anyway. I believe it is only a handfull of desktop and work station class cards that are fully supported to work. Even on the PC side most laptop users don't get to use the full CUDA features for CS5.

This is kind of the problem with Adobe only supporting gpu acceleration from one gpu manufacturer.

AMD cards from my understanding have much better OSX drivers then Nvidia and overall seem to work better so this can be taken as a good move. Now if only they would have done the same for the 13"

Craig Seeman · February 24th, 2011, 09:33 PM

Desktops may have a nVidia BTO option, I'd guess. They've never had BTO GPU option in Laptops and there move away from nVidia apparently was assumed for quite some time, not last minute. I think there were rumors about talks about a year ago. Apparently nVidia reflected this in their last financial guidance reports. I've also heard Apple wasn't interested in using nVidia's CUDA technology. Apple Motion runs much faster on a Radeon 5770 for example and may take advantage of the 5870 better with the next FCS (my speculation). In short I think it had to do with the direction they were taking FCS in.

John Hewat · February 24th, 2011, 11:30 PM

I'm fairly new to Apple and am planning on picking up a new 17" MBP.

What surprised me the most about the new models was the lack of a Blu Ray burner.

After doing some research I've discovered that it sounds like it may never happen.

As a video editor (which I imagine is one of the main professions that put the pro in MacBook Pro) with more and more people asking me for their product on Blu Ray, what good is a Mac to me? I still need my PC to take care of that business.

And given that I can't use CUDA for CS5 on the Mac, I'll continue to use Premiere on the PC, on which I can then burn to Blu Ray. For me, Apple is behind the 8-ball.

I especially find interesting the fact that Intel are saying that the new Thunderbolt technology allows you to "transfer an entire Blu Ray film in 30 seconds".

But to where? Certainly not to the Macs that are the only machines that have the Thunderbolt ports yet.

Craig Seeman · February 25th, 2011, 12:41 AM

Just buy an external Blu-Ray burner. FCP and Compressor even had a "Share" which will burn to Blu-ray. I primarily use Blu-ray for backing up files. Most of my delivery these days is file based but I'm sure that depends on your client base. For TV Spot delivery I use MPEG2 Program or Transport streams and some service will now accept ProRes as well. For corporate video I'm either delivery HD files or DVD. DVD for hand outs. Files from laptops to projectors.

Blu-ray playback, due to it's copy protection, would be a major OS and hardware development issue driving up the costs of Macs even more. Just by external. Actually for desktop MacPro you can easily buy and install a burner.

Craig Seeman · February 25th, 2011, 12:54 AM

I'm skittish about posting to offsite retailers not DVInfo sponsors but I can't think of any other way to show that Macs really do support Blu-ray burning (just not playing)

Internal and External Quad Interface Blu-ray Optical Drives. Fast, Spacious, Flexible & Up to 50GB of Storage

MCE Internal 12X Blu-ray Recordable Drive for Mac Pro and Power Mac

FastMac | Product - Blu-ray Drive Upgrade for your Mac

DVInfo sponsor sells them too but it's out of stock and buried in there they mention it includes Toast for Mac. I think the above pages are more demonstrative of targeted Mac Blu-ray marketing.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/681820-REG/LaCie_301906U_d2_12x_Blu_ray_Disc.html

Andy Mees · February 25th, 2011, 02:28 AM

Hey Roger

I think what most Apple users want (even if they don't know it yet) is for Apple (and everyone else, including Adobe) to fully support and leverage the existing capabilities of their existing hardware regardless of who manufactures the chipset ... rather than using CUDA, if Adobe used OpenCL then it would allow any suitable graphics card to be used, not just NVidia. That said ...

The Thunderbolt interconnect, as found in these new MBP's, appears to be able to support any PCIe x4 native device ie if its something you could connect to your computer via a PCIe 4x port then with a suitable adaptor you could plug it via a Thunderbolt connection ... and you can stick a CUDA capable graphics card in a PCIe x4 slot no? This seems to opens up the possibility of using such a laptop together with a desktop class graphics card for CUDA based acceleration ... not as fast as using one in a desktop I dare say, but an intriguing prospect nonetheless.

Loving these new laptops.

Just a thought.
Andy

Roger Shealy · February 26th, 2011, 07:21 PM

Thanks Andy. Didn't really consider the Thunderbold connector being used for an external graphics card. Hmmm, a little clunky, but maybe it would work.

David Knaggs · February 27th, 2011, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Mees

... and you can stick a CUDA capable graphics card in a PCIe x4 slot no? This seems to opens up the possibility of using such a laptop together with a desktop class graphics card for CUDA based acceleration ...

If that were possible, it would be a HUGE deal!

Andrew Clark · February 27th, 2011, 03:36 AM

What about the MB and CPU? Is this the SandyBridge platform they are now using?

If so, I thought Intel just did a massive recall on those boards...and from reading the various vendors postings on their sites, they state that an estimated time to get the new revision boards, and complete systems out to the end users, is around mid-March.

So if these new MBP's are utilizing the SandyBridge architecture, doesn't that mean these will have to be recalled as well?

Steve Kalle · March 6th, 2011, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Clark

What about the MB and CPU? Is this the SandyBridge platform they are now using?
If so, I thought Intel just did a massive recall on those boards...and from reading the various vendors postings on their sites, they state that an estimated time to get the new revision boards, and complete systems out to the end users, is around mid-March.

So if these new MBP's are utilizing the SandyBridge architecture, doesn't that mean these will have to be recalled as well?

It was only desktop boards and the only issue was with their Sata ports.

Photoshop and AE leverage OpenGL so AMD/ATI cards still work. For Premiere Pro acceleration, another option is the Matrox Mini with Maxx - just don't expect the Matrox to provide 'pro color' from a regular LCD.

The main problem with Apple using only AMD now is most high-end software which uses GPU acceleration needs nvidia such as Resolve, Smoke, Avid...

Andrew Clark · March 7th, 2011, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

It was only desktop boards and the only issue was with their Sata ports...

Are you sure about that??

custom gaming laptops - Welcome to Sager Notebooks

February 24th, 2011, 06:15 PM	#1
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	Can someone explain Apple's logic I've been waiting for the update to the new MacBook Pro, which was announced this week as I've been looking to spec out a system after using PC's for the last 30 years: Apple revamps MacBook Pro line, adds Thunderbolt port \| Laptops \| MacUser \| Macworld Most of it looks pretty exciting, but then I see they decided at the last minute to switch from NVidia graphics to AMD graphics, meaning no CUDA support for CS5 products. I know there's a lot of bad blood between Apple and Adobe, but doesn't this kind of kick all you Mac guys in the head that need to use AE, PS, and other CS5 tools even if you choose FCP over PPro? I'm very disappointed. I was looking at finally giving Mac a whirl, but I want to be able to use CUDA acceleration on CS5. This looks like a really bad business decision for professional users. Can someone explain how this decision is good for Apple users?

February 24th, 2011, 06:42 PM	#2
Gabe Strong Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 814	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic You might want to wait and see how the graphics cards work with the new Final Cut Studio. Just saying, Apple usually looks at how to make the computer works with their OWN software suite before worrying about Adobe's. For example, if you are running Motion, the best graphics card is different than if you are running CS5. Not saying this is the best way, but different programs work better with different cards...

February 24th, 2011, 07:40 PM	#3
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic Seems compromising CS5 is going to put Apple at a tactical disadvantage given it runs on PC and Mac and many on both sides of the fence use AE, PS, and other tools as their first choice. Seems like a bad game of chess forcing allegiance to Apple vs Apple giving users what that want. I'm not trying to be incendiary, I'm just bewildered. I just fought a battle to get myself and a coworker onto the first Apple trial at our company and now given our work is predominately CS5 I'll most like back out, buy a HP and plow ahead with CS5. Last edited by Roger Shealy; February 25th, 2011 at 08:24 AM.

February 24th, 2011, 07:46 PM	#4
Gabe Strong Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 814	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic But forcing allegiance to Apple is what Apple does! Blu Ray (or more accurately very little Blu Ray) support, Apple vs Flash and so on. Not that I'm going anywhere, I can use both FCP and CS5 on a Mac and you can't do that on a PC. That being said, I understand why others would take a different view and move over to a PC.

February 24th, 2011, 09:25 PM	#5
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic The last time I checked no Nvidia mobile gpu's supported the CS5 CUDA features anyway. I believe it is only a handfull of desktop and work station class cards that are fully supported to work. Even on the PC side most laptop users don't get to use the full CUDA features for CS5. This is kind of the problem with Adobe only supporting gpu acceleration from one gpu manufacturer. AMD cards from my understanding have much better OSX drivers then Nvidia and overall seem to work better so this can be taken as a good move. Now if only they would have done the same for the 13"

February 24th, 2011, 09:33 PM	#6
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic Desktops may have a nVidia BTO option, I'd guess. They've never had BTO GPU option in Laptops and there move away from nVidia apparently was assumed for quite some time, not last minute. I think there were rumors about talks about a year ago. Apparently nVidia reflected this in their last financial guidance reports. I've also heard Apple wasn't interested in using nVidia's CUDA technology. Apple Motion runs much faster on a Radeon 5770 for example and may take advantage of the 5870 better with the next FCS (my speculation). In short I think it had to do with the direction they were taking FCS in.

February 24th, 2011, 11:30 PM	#7
John Hewat Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Posts: 735	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic I'm fairly new to Apple and am planning on picking up a new 17" MBP. What surprised me the most about the new models was the lack of a Blu Ray burner. After doing some research I've discovered that it sounds like it may never happen. As a video editor (which I imagine is one of the main professions that put the pro in MacBook Pro) with more and more people asking me for their product on Blu Ray, what good is a Mac to me? I still need my PC to take care of that business. And given that I can't use CUDA for CS5 on the Mac, I'll continue to use Premiere on the PC, on which I can then burn to Blu Ray. For me, Apple is behind the 8-ball. I especially find interesting the fact that Intel are saying that the new Thunderbolt technology allows you to "transfer an entire Blu Ray film in 30 seconds". But to where? Certainly not to the Macs that are the only machines that have the Thunderbolt ports yet. __________________ John Hewat Mammoth Media Productions

February 25th, 2011, 12:41 AM	#8
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic Just buy an external Blu-Ray burner. FCP and Compressor even had a "Share" which will burn to Blu-ray. I primarily use Blu-ray for backing up files. Most of my delivery these days is file based but I'm sure that depends on your client base. For TV Spot delivery I use MPEG2 Program or Transport streams and some service will now accept ProRes as well. For corporate video I'm either delivery HD files or DVD. DVD for hand outs. Files from laptops to projectors. Blu-ray playback, due to it's copy protection, would be a major OS and hardware development issue driving up the costs of Macs even more. Just by external. Actually for desktop MacPro you can easily buy and install a burner.

February 25th, 2011, 12:54 AM	#9
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic I'm skittish about posting to offsite retailers not DVInfo sponsors but I can't think of any other way to show that Macs really do support Blu-ray burning (just not playing) Internal and External Quad Interface Blu-ray Optical Drives. Fast, Spacious, Flexible & Up to 50GB of Storage MCE Internal 12X Blu-ray Recordable Drive for Mac Pro and Power Mac FastMac \| Product - Blu-ray Drive Upgrade for your Mac DVInfo sponsor sells them too but it's out of stock and buried in there they mention it includes Toast for Mac. I think the above pages are more demonstrative of targeted Mac Blu-ray marketing. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/681820-REG/LaCie_301906U_d2_12x_Blu_ray_Disc.html

February 25th, 2011, 02:28 AM	#10
Andy Mees Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 645	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic Hey Roger I think what most Apple users want (even if they don't know it yet) is for Apple (and everyone else, including Adobe) to fully support and leverage the existing capabilities of their existing hardware regardless of who manufactures the chipset ... rather than using CUDA, if Adobe used OpenCL then it would allow any suitable graphics card to be used, not just NVidia. That said ... The Thunderbolt interconnect, as found in these new MBP's, appears to be able to support any PCIe x4 native device ie if its something you could connect to your computer via a PCIe 4x port then with a suitable adaptor you could plug it via a Thunderbolt connection ... and you can stick a CUDA capable graphics card in a PCIe x4 slot no? This seems to opens up the possibility of using such a laptop together with a desktop class graphics card for CUDA based acceleration ... not as fast as using one in a desktop I dare say, but an intriguing prospect nonetheless. Loving these new laptops. Just a thought. Andy

February 26th, 2011, 07:21 PM	#11
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic Thanks Andy. Didn't really consider the Thunderbold connector being used for an external graphics card. Hmmm, a little clunky, but maybe it would work.

February 27th, 2011, 03:36 AM	#13
Andrew Clark Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 477	Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic What about the MB and CPU? Is this the SandyBridge platform they are now using? If so, I thought Intel just did a massive recall on those boards...and from reading the various vendors postings on their sites, they state that an estimated time to get the new revision boards, and complete systems out to the end users, is around mid-March. So if these new MBP's are utilizing the SandyBridge architecture, doesn't that mean these will have to be recalled as well?