HDV to SD to Mini DV in Final Cut Pro at DVinfo.net

Eric Sorensen · November 18th, 2009, 07:30 PM

Hello all,

I was hoping to get some advice on a possible workflow for Final Cut Pro.

I am attending a Cinema class and am making a 1 minute movie. The professor needs the projects turned in on Mini DV (in SD) to screen for evaluation.

I shot my movie on a Canon XH-A1 using 24F and 1080i.
I have a Sony TRV-25 which I am hoping to use as a SD deck to record back on to Mini DV.

I have captured via firewire using the Apple ProRes 422 and laid out on the timeline.

I tried using both "Print to Video" and "Edit to Tape" using the TRV-25 but only audio is recorded to tape, no video at all, just black. Is there a specific setting I need to use for this?

Do I need to render the footage into SD first and then use Print to Video or Edit to Tape? If so, what method should I use?

If anyone could help me out, I sure would appreciate it.

Best,
Eric

-iMac 24 w/ 2.66 GHz Core 2 - 4 GB RAM
-Mac OS X 10.6.2
-Final Cut Pro 7.0

Eric Sorensen · November 18th, 2009, 07:58 PM

UPDATE:

When I use the "Edit to Tape" option, I get the first frame recorded to the Sony TRV-25, but it holds on that first frame.

I can hear the audio playing normally but it just sits on the first frame.

Any thoughts?

Edward Carlson · November 18th, 2009, 09:52 PM

Yes, you will need place the video in an SD timeline and render it out. SD equipment can't take an HD signal.

Eric Sorensen · November 19th, 2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Carlson

Yes, you will need place the video in an SD timeline and render it out. SD equipment can't take an HD signal.

Thanks very much Edward that did the trick.

I created a new SD sequence and dragged the timeline into the new sequence. All is good. Now I can "Print to Tape" using the TRV-25 and see it on the television I plug into.

I am not sure if this is my television (old with a VCR) but when I watch the footage on the TRV-25, I can see the bars on the top and bottom. That is what I want. On the television though, it fills the screen and looks a little out of proportion.

I do have the Aspect Ratio in the Viewer set to -33.33.

Any thoughts on how to get the letterbox bars or do you think it is my old VCR that is converting it to fill the screen? I don't think I saw an option to stretch in the menu.

When I plug the TRV-25 into my 50' Plasma, it looks pretty good and fills the screen.

Thanks!

Edward Carlson · November 19th, 2009, 02:39 PM

If the sequence is set for widescreen, it will output in widescreen with no bars. It will be stretched. If the sequence is set to 4x3, then the video should be letterboxed in the viewer, and therefore on the TV.

R Geoff Baker · November 21st, 2009, 08:45 AM

Just to rephrase what Eric said:
Widescreen or 16:9 mode in DV format is not letterboxed -- it uses the full 480 (NTSC) raster, but a flag is set in the file so that an 'aware' player or TV will display anamorphically and so properly. On some old analog sets that means adjusting the scan so that all 480 lines are displayed in a reduced vertical space; in more modern LCD displays it means recalculating the display to present across whatever pixel array is required to present a 720x480 frame in 16:9 mode.

It is the job of the display device to make this adjustment -- the file itself, whether on tape or HDD, does not waste space with the letterbox bars, it just flags to add them.

That said, there are some DV camcorders that created faux widescreen -- no flag was set, black bars were layered into the image so you were actually recording a 720x480 4:3 array with the top & bottom of the image transformed into black ... a stupid waste of recording space & display resolution, but you will find recordings that were made this way. The proper way is to set a flag, whether on a DVD or a DV file, and have the display make the appropriate adjustment. If you are unsure of whether your viewer will have the correct hardware to display a flagged file, my advice is to offer both & let the viewer see the one that displays properly on their hardware -- if you don't, and they see the wrong thing, they will always believe it is your fault ...

Cheers,
GB

Eric Sorensen · November 22nd, 2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Geoff Baker

Just to rephrase what Eric said:
Widescreen or 16:9 mode in DV format is not letterboxed -- it uses the full 480 (NTSC) raster, but a flag is set in the file so that an 'aware' player or TV will display anamorphically and so properly. On some old analog sets that means adjusting the scan so that all 480 lines are displayed in a reduced vertical space; in more modern LCD displays it means recalculating the display to present across whatever pixel array is required to present a 720x480 frame in 16:9 mode.

It is the job of the display device to make this adjustment -- the file itself, whether on tape or HDD, does not waste space with the letterbox bars, it just flags to add them.

That said, there are some DV camcorders that created faux widescreen -- no flag was set, black bars were layered into the image so you were actually recording a 720x480 4:3 array with the top & bottom of the image transformed into black ... a stupid waste of recording space & display resolution, but you will find recordings that were made this way. The proper way is to set a flag, whether on a DVD or a DV file, and have the display make the appropriate adjustment. If you are unsure of whether your viewer will have the correct hardware to display a flagged file, my advice is to offer both & let the viewer see the one that displays properly on their hardware -- if you don't, and they see the wrong thing, they will always believe it is your fault ...

Cheers,
GB

Dear GB,

Very well spoken! That has been and is my problem.

I screened my project last Thursday and the deck the professor used did display the footage correctly (letterboxed), but the projector connected to it did not and the image was out of proportion. I used the NTSC DV (3:2) as the sequence option.

Later, I did try using NTSC (4:3) as the aspect ratio in the sequence settings but when I tried the "Print to Tape" option, I only get a black screen with audio. No video at all.

Any thoughts on how to pint to tape with the black bars printed instead of flagged?

Thank you,
Eric

R Geoff Baker · November 23rd, 2009, 07:51 AM

If you need to have the black bars actually embedded in the file, you have to render out an entirely new file, with the 'real' video re-aspected (not likely a word!) and the black bars layered in. A slow process. But for a one minute project hardly a deal breaker. Your final result will have the bars embedded, the video will be correctly aspected but consequently of reduced vertical resolution.

HTH

GB

Eric Sorensen · November 23rd, 2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Geoff Baker

If you need to have the black bars actually embedded in the file, you have to render out an entirely new file, with the 'real' video re-aspected (not likely a word!) and the black bars layered in. A slow process. But for a one minute project hardly a deal breaker. Your final result will have the bars embedded, the video will be correctly aspected but consequently of reduced vertical resolution.

HTH

GB

Hey GB,

Thanks again. I do believe this is what I am going to have to do to display the project properly for my class. Unfortunately, they don't even have a projector that will support the 'flag' option.

Do you know the actual steps or settings to "re-aspect" this with the black bars?

R Geoff Baker · November 23rd, 2009, 02:36 PM

It's all math at this point. You have a file that is 720x480 intended to present as 16:9. You want a file that takes the same visual area and is still 720 pixels wide but is now within a 16:9 window in a 16:12 area (4:3 converted to a common denominator). So you have to reduce the height of the visual area to 9/12 (3/4) without changing the width -- this is a trick for the Motion filter. If I remember correctly, it is a simple matter of dialing in a 'scale to 75%' and 'center'. The result should be an image that is 360 lines tall, 720 pixels wide, and centered. I think that if you do nothing else the 120 'unused' lines will convert to black, but if not just build an image matte that is 60 lines of black top and bottom, full width. Or super the converted clip described earlier over a full screen black matte. Or maybe there is even a matte filter in there somewhere ...

HTH

GB

Eric Sorensen · November 23rd, 2009, 11:43 PM

OK... now I am a little bummed.

My primary computer (I have been using my girlfriend’s iMac 24) is a PC and getting OLD. I just captured the HDV footage in Premiere CS3 and rendered it for NTSC and used the "Export to Tape" option and it displays properly on my old TV (Letterbox). It actually looks pretty good for SD on a 34 year old tube!

GB,
Thank you for taking the time to explain on how to scale the footage within Final Cut. I will give it a try and let you know how it comes out. At least I have a sure way to display my footage for evaluation and the grade. My professor had made a comment as to how he would have "liked" to have seen my footage displayed properly in widescreen. I hope it doesn't affect my grade!

(Start rant)
I was going to invest in a MAC Pro when they update their processor line and I really wanted to start working with Final Cut. So many people in this industry preach it and that is all they teach at my College. Now, I know HD workflow is much better with final cut (excluding blueray) but are there any other shortcomings I can expect with my workflow process when I start working to sell my product? I thought MACs were easier?
(End rant)

Craig Parkes · November 24th, 2009, 09:04 PM

Macs are Easy - Understanding the myriad of television formats and their correct application/use is difficult.

Final Cut gives you the option to work however you want with this media - which is awesome.

The difficulty is that by allowing you to work however you want it also very easily allows you to stuff it up - which is problematic.

No editing program removes the need to understand formats and deliverables, especially when it comes to multi platform shooting and delivery (shooting HD, delivering SD etc.)

Unfortunately, this is one of the topics whose importance is drastically under estimated by beginners and often almost completely absent in any real form from class curriculums in many places.

Benjamin Hill · November 24th, 2009, 10:46 PM

Eric, what you are trying to do is actually very simple. If you drop an HDV file into a standard NTSC 720x480 timeline- not anamorphic- and don't let FCP change the sequence settings to match the file, you will have the 4:3, letterboxed video you are seeking. Simply render and print to tape. I do this all the time.

Eric Sorensen · November 25th, 2009, 02:39 AM

ok... Feeling better about MACs again.

Craig,
You are right about the overwhelming options one has with Final Cut or any NLE out there for that matter.

Benjamin,
Thanks for the feedback as that is exactly what I did.

Created a new sequence with the Aspect Ratio of NTSC DV (3:2) and made sure Anamorphic 16:9 was UNchecked. Dragged my HD footage onto the timeline of the new sequence, Edit to Tape and all is well. It displayed properly.

I must be loosing my mind because I could have sworn that I tried that setting. There were many times when I would try to Edit to Tape and it would only record audio to the deck. Maybe because this time I used the Black and Code option? I was reusing a test tape over and over.

Now I will be able to complete this project on FCP and next semester is an editing class. Can't wait!

Thanks again everyone for helping out.

Eric Sorensen · November 28th, 2009, 05:32 PM

I wanted to let everyone know that I continued having problems with the "Edit to Tape" option. It seemed it would work sometimes and then not work other times and it was driving me crazy.

I found a workflow that seems to work every time.

What I need to do is this:
-Restart the iMac.
-Plug my SD Video Camera into the iMac via FirwWire 800
-Turn on the Camera to VCR mode
-Open Final Cut Pro and select the proper SD sequence.
-Then open up the "Edit to Tape" option and record to tape.

I thought I was going crazy but either the mac or the camera is temperamental. If I do not follow the above listed steps, when I select the "Edit to Tape" option, all I get is a blank screen on the camera and it doesn't record anything. It shows the record light and actually runs, but nothing is recorded to tape, it plays back blank.

I am glad I finally figured this out because it was quite frustrating when people would say it’s easy, just do this; and then it not work for me.

I hope this helps someone else if they ever have the problem I was having.

November 18th, 2009, 07:30 PM	#1
Eric Sorensen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 28	HDV to SD to Mini DV in Final Cut Pro Hello all, I was hoping to get some advice on a possible workflow for Final Cut Pro. I am attending a Cinema class and am making a 1 minute movie. The professor needs the projects turned in on Mini DV (in SD) to screen for evaluation. I shot my movie on a Canon XH-A1 using 24F and 1080i. I have a Sony TRV-25 which I am hoping to use as a SD deck to record back on to Mini DV. I have captured via firewire using the Apple ProRes 422 and laid out on the timeline. I tried using both "Print to Video" and "Edit to Tape" using the TRV-25 but only audio is recorded to tape, no video at all, just black. Is there a specific setting I need to use for this? Do I need to render the footage into SD first and then use Print to Video or Edit to Tape? If so, what method should I use? If anyone could help me out, I sure would appreciate it. Best, Eric -iMac 24 w/ 2.66 GHz Core 2 - 4 GB RAM -Mac OS X 10.6.2 -Final Cut Pro 7.0

November 24th, 2009, 09:04 PM	#12
Craig Parkes Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 444	Macs are Easy - Understanding the myriad of television formats and their correct application/use is difficult. Final Cut gives you the option to work however you want with this media - which is awesome. The difficulty is that by allowing you to work however you want it also very easily allows you to stuff it up - which is problematic. No editing program removes the need to understand formats and deliverables, especially when it comes to multi platform shooting and delivery (shooting HD, delivering SD etc.) Unfortunately, this is one of the topics whose importance is drastically under estimated by beginners and often almost completely absent in any real form from class curriculums in many places. __________________ www.afterglow.co.nz

November 24th, 2009, 10:46 PM	#13
Benjamin Hill Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Iowa City, Iowa Posts: 670	Eric, what you are trying to do is actually very simple. If you drop an HDV file into a standard NTSC 720x480 timeline- not anamorphic- and don't let FCP change the sequence settings to match the file, you will have the 4:3, letterboxed video you are seeking. Simply render and print to tape. I do this all the time. __________________ youtube.com/benhillmedia linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia

November 18th, 2009, 07:58 PM	#2
Eric Sorensen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 28	UPDATE: When I use the "Edit to Tape" option, I get the first frame recorded to the Sony TRV-25, but it holds on that first frame. I can hear the audio playing normally but it just sits on the first frame. Any thoughts?

November 18th, 2009, 09:52 PM	#3
Edward Carlson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North Hollywood, CA, United States Posts: 807	Yes, you will need place the video in an SD timeline and render it out. SD equipment can't take an HD signal.

November 19th, 2009, 02:39 PM	#5
Edward Carlson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North Hollywood, CA, United States Posts: 807	If the sequence is set for widescreen, it will output in widescreen with no bars. It will be stretched. If the sequence is set to 4x3, then the video should be letterboxed in the viewer, and therefore on the TV.

November 21st, 2009, 08:45 AM	#6
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	Just to rephrase what Eric said: Widescreen or 16:9 mode in DV format is not letterboxed -- it uses the full 480 (NTSC) raster, but a flag is set in the file so that an 'aware' player or TV will display anamorphically and so properly. On some old analog sets that means adjusting the scan so that all 480 lines are displayed in a reduced vertical space; in more modern LCD displays it means recalculating the display to present across whatever pixel array is required to present a 720x480 frame in 16:9 mode. It is the job of the display device to make this adjustment -- the file itself, whether on tape or HDD, does not waste space with the letterbox bars, it just flags to add them. That said, there are some DV camcorders that created faux widescreen -- no flag was set, black bars were layered into the image so you were actually recording a 720x480 4:3 array with the top & bottom of the image transformed into black ... a stupid waste of recording space & display resolution, but you will find recordings that were made this way. The proper way is to set a flag, whether on a DVD or a DV file, and have the display make the appropriate adjustment. If you are unsure of whether your viewer will have the correct hardware to display a flagged file, my advice is to offer both & let the viewer see the one that displays properly on their hardware -- if you don't, and they see the wrong thing, they will always believe it is your fault ... Cheers, GB

November 23rd, 2009, 07:51 AM	#8
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	If you need to have the black bars actually embedded in the file, you have to render out an entirely new file, with the 'real' video re-aspected (not likely a word!) and the black bars layered in. A slow process. But for a one minute project hardly a deal breaker. Your final result will have the bars embedded, the video will be correctly aspected but consequently of reduced vertical resolution. HTH GB

November 23rd, 2009, 02:36 PM	#10
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	It's all math at this point. You have a file that is 720x480 intended to present as 16:9. You want a file that takes the same visual area and is still 720 pixels wide but is now within a 16:9 window in a 16:12 area (4:3 converted to a common denominator). So you have to reduce the height of the visual area to 9/12 (3/4) without changing the width -- this is a trick for the Motion filter. If I remember correctly, it is a simple matter of dialing in a 'scale to 75%' and 'center'. The result should be an image that is 360 lines tall, 720 pixels wide, and centered. I think that if you do nothing else the 120 'unused' lines will convert to black, but if not just build an image matte that is 60 lines of black top and bottom, full width. Or super the converted clip described earlier over a full screen black matte. Or maybe there is even a matte filter in there somewhere ... HTH GB

November 23rd, 2009, 11:43 PM	#11
Eric Sorensen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 28	OK... now I am a little bummed. My primary computer (I have been using my girlfriend’s iMac 24) is a PC and getting OLD. I just captured the HDV footage in Premiere CS3 and rendered it for NTSC and used the "Export to Tape" option and it displays properly on my old TV (Letterbox). It actually looks pretty good for SD on a 34 year old tube! GB, Thank you for taking the time to explain on how to scale the footage within Final Cut. I will give it a try and let you know how it comes out. At least I have a sure way to display my footage for evaluation and the grade. My professor had made a comment as to how he would have "liked" to have seen my footage displayed properly in widescreen. I hope it doesn't affect my grade! (Start rant) I was going to invest in a MAC Pro when they update their processor line and I really wanted to start working with Final Cut. So many people in this industry preach it and that is all they teach at my College. Now, I know HD workflow is much better with final cut (excluding blueray) but are there any other shortcomings I can expect with my workflow process when I start working to sell my product? I thought MACs were easier? (End rant)

November 25th, 2009, 02:39 AM	#14
Eric Sorensen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 28	ok... Feeling better about MACs again. Craig, You are right about the overwhelming options one has with Final Cut or any NLE out there for that matter. Benjamin, Thanks for the feedback as that is exactly what I did. Created a new sequence with the Aspect Ratio of NTSC DV (3:2) and made sure Anamorphic 16:9 was UNchecked. Dragged my HD footage onto the timeline of the new sequence, Edit to Tape and all is well. It displayed properly. I must be loosing my mind because I could have sworn that I tried that setting. There were many times when I would try to Edit to Tape and it would only record audio to the deck. Maybe because this time I used the Black and Code option? I was reusing a test tape over and over. Now I will be able to complete this project on FCP and next semester is an editing class. Can't wait! Thanks again everyone for helping out.

November 28th, 2009, 05:32 PM	#15
Eric Sorensen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 28	I wanted to let everyone know that I continued having problems with the "Edit to Tape" option. It seemed it would work sometimes and then not work other times and it was driving me crazy. I found a workflow that seems to work every time. What I need to do is this: -Restart the iMac. -Plug my SD Video Camera into the iMac via FirwWire 800 -Turn on the Camera to VCR mode -Open Final Cut Pro and select the proper SD sequence. -Then open up the "Edit to Tape" option and record to tape. I thought I was going crazy but either the mac or the camera is temperamental. If I do not follow the above listed steps, when I select the "Edit to Tape" option, all I get is a blank screen on the camera and it doesn't record anything. It shows the record light and actually runs, but nothing is recorded to tape, it plays back blank. I am glad I finally figured this out because it was quite frustrating when people would say it’s easy, just do this; and then it not work for me. I hope this helps someone else if they ever have the problem I was having.