2 Camera Editing or one at DVinfo.net

Derek Harkins · June 17th, 2005, 07:34 AM

I own a DVX100A and have just begun a event videography business. I cannot afford to purchase another dvx at the moment and have concidered using 2 cameras. I know that if I use a one chip camera the picture will look very different from the dvx but if I use 2 Cam's that is all I can afford at the moment. So this is my Question am I better to use just one quality cam or 2 Cam' one being Quality and the other being a single chip.

Nate Ford · June 17th, 2005, 08:41 AM

that's a tough one to call. i do a lot of 2 cam stuff and i think it makes a big difference. (but i have the benefit of having 2 matched 3 chippers.)

i think it's worth doing. there are a lot of very decent 1 chip cams. the canon optura 60 and xi come to mind. also, panasonic has some very affordable 3 chip cams. the pv-gs400 is a lot of camera for about $1300. the pv-gs250 would probably work for you too and it's around $800.

the bummer is, you can't use any of the dvx's best features (you'll obviously have a much harder time matching shots if you use progressive or cine gamma.)

but if you manually white balance each scene, you should be able to get footage you can cut together, especially if you're willing to do some color correction in post.

Patrick Pike · June 17th, 2005, 08:53 AM

I fought the same fight between quality and quantity. I ended up with three GL-2's (I was looking at one XL-2). I know the footage does not look as nice, but man, editing is a breeze! Especially with the new multi-cam editing feature, I would definetly get a second cam. It will save your butt when you are shooting once in a lifetime priceless events.

Like Nate said, I would look towards some less expensive 3 chip cameras. If you can get clean footage with it, it is easy these days to tweak the look in post to get the slick film look. Personally, I like to add this in during post simply because I dont have the time during a wedding shoot tweak the image using incamera settings. That way I can "test" various looks out later on.

Derek Harkins · June 17th, 2005, 10:39 AM

OK here is the tuff one then. I have been doing most of my post edit w/ imovie (I know Shame Shame, but it is so easy to use) I do have FCP 4 but have been hesitant to use it as to the learning curve. Now I know that does not make sence because I have a DVX that shoots in 24p and imovie will not do the pull down only FCP will. So it puts me in this spot I am trying to learn FCP as best I can but I have no-one to teach me (Kind of overwhelming) To be honest I have no idea of how to do a multi-camera sync to edit. Where should I start? I understand that I should only record the audio on one DV cam but how do I kink the footage from the second cam to the audio of the other cam in post. (I know this has to be to difficult for imove that is why I am trying to learn FCP) Has anyone else strugled with this?

Patrick Pike · June 17th, 2005, 10:46 AM

Unfortunately MultiCam Editing is really only avaialbe in FCP 5 (best reason to update too). The manuals are really well written and will answer most of your questions as they come up. Anytime you are syncing two cameras (without matched timecode) it will be difficult. My method is to find, and place markers, on frames with camera flashes. If you pick a point like the first kiss, there will be quite a few to help you out. Once you do this for both cameras, the two tracks with markers will be fairly easy to sync.

One thing to remember is to sync the video according to the video, not the audio. For example, if you have one camera up close to the pastor and one in the back (both using on camera mics) the audio takes longer to reach the camera in the back. Simple physics, but dont forget it.

Nate Ford · June 17th, 2005, 11:19 AM

without real multicam (which you need 5 for,) the best you can really do is put one camera's vid on v1, a1&2, and the other's on v2, a3&4. then find a good spot like patrick said and sync em up. you can turn off v2, so only v1 is showing, find your sync moment (i like drum hits, but then i do a lot of 2 camera concert shoots.) when you're on the exact frame you want to use, add a clip marker. then, turn on v2, find the moment, and add a clip marker there. then just budge your track till the markers line up, and tweak it by a frame at a time if you need to.

next: duplicate your sequence, giving the new one a name like "multicam." double click the new seq in the project window, and it will open as a new tab in your timeline. double click the video on track 1 so it opens in the "viewer" window. click the motion tab. set "scale" to 50. set "center" to 180, 0. reepeat this process with track v2, but set "center" to -180, 0. (scale 50 again.)

this will give you side by side clips so that you can see them both, choosing which one you want to show. and on my g5 it doesn't require rendering to show this way. it probably makes sense to do the syncing now, actually, when you can see both cams together. (for some reason, i've never done it this way.)

then, you have some choices. probably the simples thing to do is use the razor blade to chop up the video on track v2. you can leave track 1 alone. in the end, it will only show when there are "gaps" in track 2. oh-make sure that before now you have "unlinked" the audio from the video (little green button in upper right corner of timeline window.) also, you should probably "lock" the audio tracks, and turn off the audio tracks for whichever tracks aren't the best sounding. you can also just delete the undesired audio, but i find that i feel safer having it around in case something weird happens with the better audio.

so when you're done, you're timeline will look like 1 solid track of video for v1, and a bunch of chopped-up pieces on v2. when it looks good, double click the all of the video clips, go into "motion" and change scale back to 100 and center to 0,0. it's a pain cause you have to do each clip separately so if you have a bunch of "pieces" on v2 you have to do them all. another way to work is just use the multicam sequence for previewing purposes, and when you make an edit decision, click back over to the original sequence and do your editing there.

hope that helps. it aint as smooth as the new multicam feature in 5, but it's a workaround. let me know if you have any questions.

Derek Harkins · June 17th, 2005, 01:48 PM

WoW Nate and Patrick you guys are alot of help..... I will have to play wit the work arround in FCP but It looks like from what you both have told me if I choose to go to a multi cam situation I should look at a Pan small 3 chip and upgrade to FCP 5. This will gave to be in my budget with the new G5 I would like to get or should I say my ne Apple Intel ??????

Les Wilson · June 24th, 2005, 11:18 AM

I've always done multi-cam editting using multiple tracks at full size. I'm going to give this side by side a whirl next time.

You may find the Paste Attributes command an easier way to apply the motion tab changes:
Change one clip on V2 to be the position and size you want
Edit->Copy
Select all the other V2 clips
Edit->Paste Attributes
Select "Basic Motion" from the pop-up
Squeal with delight as FCP applies the motion to all the selected clips.

June 17th, 2005, 07:34 AM	#1
Derek Harkins New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bellows Falls, VT Posts: 23	2 Camera Editing or one I own a DVX100A and have just begun a event videography business. I cannot afford to purchase another dvx at the moment and have concidered using 2 cameras. I know that if I use a one chip camera the picture will look very different from the dvx but if I use 2 Cam's that is all I can afford at the moment. So this is my Question am I better to use just one quality cam or 2 Cam' one being Quality and the other being a single chip.

June 17th, 2005, 08:41 AM	#2
Nate Ford Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: new york, ny Posts: 121	that's a tough one to call. i do a lot of 2 cam stuff and i think it makes a big difference. (but i have the benefit of having 2 matched 3 chippers.) i think it's worth doing. there are a lot of very decent 1 chip cams. the canon optura 60 and xi come to mind. also, panasonic has some very affordable 3 chip cams. the pv-gs400 is a lot of camera for about $1300. the pv-gs250 would probably work for you too and it's around $800. the bummer is, you can't use any of the dvx's best features (you'll obviously have a much harder time matching shots if you use progressive or cine gamma.) but if you manually white balance each scene, you should be able to get footage you can cut together, especially if you're willing to do some color correction in post.

June 17th, 2005, 08:53 AM	#3
Patrick Pike Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mariposa, CA Posts: 200	I fought the same fight between quality and quantity. I ended up with three GL-2's (I was looking at one XL-2). I know the footage does not look as nice, but man, editing is a breeze! Especially with the new multi-cam editing feature, I would definetly get a second cam. It will save your butt when you are shooting once in a lifetime priceless events. Like Nate said, I would look towards some less expensive 3 chip cameras. If you can get clean footage with it, it is easy these days to tweak the look in post to get the slick film look. Personally, I like to add this in during post simply because I dont have the time during a wedding shoot tweak the image using incamera settings. That way I can "test" various looks out later on.

June 17th, 2005, 10:39 AM	#4
Derek Harkins New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bellows Falls, VT Posts: 23	OK here is the tuff one then. I have been doing most of my post edit w/ imovie (I know Shame Shame, but it is so easy to use) I do have FCP 4 but have been hesitant to use it as to the learning curve. Now I know that does not make sence because I have a DVX that shoots in 24p and imovie will not do the pull down only FCP will. So it puts me in this spot I am trying to learn FCP as best I can but I have no-one to teach me (Kind of overwhelming) To be honest I have no idea of how to do a multi-camera sync to edit. Where should I start? I understand that I should only record the audio on one DV cam but how do I kink the footage from the second cam to the audio of the other cam in post. (I know this has to be to difficult for imove that is why I am trying to learn FCP) Has anyone else strugled with this?

June 17th, 2005, 10:46 AM	#5
Patrick Pike Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mariposa, CA Posts: 200	Unfortunately MultiCam Editing is really only avaialbe in FCP 5 (best reason to update too). The manuals are really well written and will answer most of your questions as they come up. Anytime you are syncing two cameras (without matched timecode) it will be difficult. My method is to find, and place markers, on frames with camera flashes. If you pick a point like the first kiss, there will be quite a few to help you out. Once you do this for both cameras, the two tracks with markers will be fairly easy to sync. One thing to remember is to sync the video according to the video, not the audio. For example, if you have one camera up close to the pastor and one in the back (both using on camera mics) the audio takes longer to reach the camera in the back. Simple physics, but dont forget it.

June 17th, 2005, 11:19 AM	#6
Nate Ford Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: new york, ny Posts: 121	without real multicam (which you need 5 for,) the best you can really do is put one camera's vid on v1, a1&2, and the other's on v2, a3&4. then find a good spot like patrick said and sync em up. you can turn off v2, so only v1 is showing, find your sync moment (i like drum hits, but then i do a lot of 2 camera concert shoots.) when you're on the exact frame you want to use, add a clip marker. then, turn on v2, find the moment, and add a clip marker there. then just budge your track till the markers line up, and tweak it by a frame at a time if you need to. next: duplicate your sequence, giving the new one a name like "multicam." double click the new seq in the project window, and it will open as a new tab in your timeline. double click the video on track 1 so it opens in the "viewer" window. click the motion tab. set "scale" to 50. set "center" to 180, 0. reepeat this process with track v2, but set "center" to -180, 0. (scale 50 again.) this will give you side by side clips so that you can see them both, choosing which one you want to show. and on my g5 it doesn't require rendering to show this way. it probably makes sense to do the syncing now, actually, when you can see both cams together. (for some reason, i've never done it this way.) then, you have some choices. probably the simples thing to do is use the razor blade to chop up the video on track v2. you can leave track 1 alone. in the end, it will only show when there are "gaps" in track 2. oh-make sure that before now you have "unlinked" the audio from the video (little green button in upper right corner of timeline window.) also, you should probably "lock" the audio tracks, and turn off the audio tracks for whichever tracks aren't the best sounding. you can also just delete the undesired audio, but i find that i feel safer having it around in case something weird happens with the better audio. so when you're done, you're timeline will look like 1 solid track of video for v1, and a bunch of chopped-up pieces on v2. when it looks good, double click the all of the video clips, go into "motion" and change scale back to 100 and center to 0,0. it's a pain cause you have to do each clip separately so if you have a bunch of "pieces" on v2 you have to do them all. another way to work is just use the multicam sequence for previewing purposes, and when you make an edit decision, click back over to the original sequence and do your editing there. hope that helps. it aint as smooth as the new multicam feature in 5, but it's a workaround. let me know if you have any questions.

June 17th, 2005, 01:48 PM	#7
Derek Harkins New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bellows Falls, VT Posts: 23	WoW Nate and Patrick you guys are alot of help..... I will have to play wit the work arround in FCP but It looks like from what you both have told me if I choose to go to a multi cam situation I should look at a Pan small 3 chip and upgrade to FCP 5. This will gave to be in my budget with the new G5 I would like to get or should I say my ne Apple Intel ??????

June 24th, 2005, 11:18 AM	#8
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	I've always done multi-cam editting using multiple tracks at full size. I'm going to give this side by side a whirl next time. You may find the Paste Attributes command an easier way to apply the motion tab changes: Change one clip on V2 to be the position and size you want Edit->Copy Select all the other V2 clips Edit->Paste Attributes Select "Basic Motion" from the pop-up Squeal with delight as FCP applies the motion to all the selected clips.