Mac Mini:editing in realtime? at DVinfo.net

Gabriele Turchi · February 28th, 2005, 02:50 PM

Hi Everybody

what do you think about to use Mac Mini to edit HDV?

I mena with lumerie HD or in DVCPRO HD converted format?

You think that the Mac Mini have the necessary power to edit in realtime?

best regards

Gabriele

Kevin Shaw · February 28th, 2005, 10:03 PM

<<<You think that the Mac Mini have the necessary power to edit in realtime?>>>

I would very seriously doubt that, and if someone says it does I would ask them to elaborate on exactly what they can and can't do without rendering. Even high-end dual processor computers can only do so much in high definition in real time, so claiming a Mac Mini can do much would be a stretch.

"Real time" means different things to different people. True real-time editing means you never have to render for any reason during capture, editing or output to see full-resolution, full frame rate video, regardless of the complexity of your project. That doesn't exist for HDV editing at this time, so the best you can ask for is a functionally effective compromise. Insist on finding out what the comromises are for your preferred editing solution.

Rhett Allen · February 28th, 2005, 10:53 PM

The Mac Mini wasn't designed as an editing computer in the first place, but, it isn't "THAT" much different than a Powerbook as far as the specs are concerned and plenty of people edit on those every day (myself included). I wouldn't get all excited about a ton realtime effects and such as it just doesn't have the power for that (although it is very respectable). It would be a nice little entry level machine though. If I were you I'd save my pennies (or Lira's or Euro's or whatever it is now) and get a G5 system (not an iMac either) or a used Dual G4 (my other system). You'll be much happier in the long run.

Gabriele Turchi · March 1st, 2005, 05:22 AM

Of Course the G5 is the REAL POWER!!!

in my post for realtime,i mean the realtime explained by apple for FinalcutHD and Powerbook,

so i want to understand if the MicaMini has the same Powerful than tha Powerbook,

I am a PC user at the moment and i want try the Mac World with FinalCut Ecc(i want to try the Powerful of the Mac and the stability)....but i don't want to buy a Mac which have less or the same powerful than Athlon Xp3200+

If the MacMini have the same Powerful than the Powerbook.....i think it will be a good begin......and after if the MacWorld make me Entusiastic(i really think it will make me Entusiastic)i will buy the G5(and when i will have the money......)

so,
You think that the Macmini have the same potentiality that the Powerbook?

Best regards

Gabriele

Kevin Shaw · March 1st, 2005, 09:02 AM

Gabriele: for what it's worth, you can buy a PC notebook with at least as much computing power as your Athlon system and have an effective, portable, real-time HDV editing solution, and the whole thing including software wouldn't have to cost any more than a bare-bones G5 PowerMac. You can't currently get this level of HDV editing performance from a PowerBook or Mac Mini, so it wouldn't make much sense right now to invest in the Mac platform for your purposes. And before you buy any Mac-based HD/HDV setup, you might want to read the following analysis of high-definition editing codecs:

http://www.cineform.com/technology/HDQualityAnalysis10bit/HDQualityAnalysis10bit.htm

In short, PCs currently offer more and better options than Macs for working with HDV. Maybe after NAB we'll see some new HDV solutions for Macs, so if you're really interested in the Mac platform you should wait a few weeks to see what develops.

Gabriele Turchi · March 1st, 2005, 09:23 AM

Thank Kevin,

you probabily have reason,at the moment PC user have more possibility to edit HDV,

but in this moment i don't have HDV camera(but i can use a FX1 of my friend to have a HDV clip),so i have not hurry

my intention to buy Mac mini is to try the Mac World and start to work with Final Cut and Shake(i want uderstand the potentiality of that softwere)

and i want to know if Mac Mini have the powerful to work with that softwere,after that experience i can decide to buy a G5 system.

I know that today's PC are most powerful most Mac Mini,but i think that the Apple stability is better than the PC sistem stability,
so i want to try that stability,and if that stabily are to much better i ill buy the Mac STABILITY and POWERFUL of the dual G5.

best regards

Gabriele

Kevin Shaw · March 1st, 2005, 10:11 AM

<<<i think that the Apple stability is better than the PC sistem stability, so i want to try that stability,and if that stabily are to much better i ill buy the Mac STABILITY and POWERFUL of the dual G5.>>>

I've been doing video editing on PCs for several years now without significant stability issues. If you're having problems trouble-shooting technical issues with your PC then Macs may give you less headaches, but don't be too sure about that. When I used Macs I spent at least as much time fussing with hardware and software as I do now on PCs, but perhaps with a little less frustration. Just don't expect that getting a Mac will solve *all* your technical problems.

Rhett Allen · March 1st, 2005, 02:56 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw : "...Even high-end dual processor computers can only do so much in high definition in real time, so claiming a Mac Mini can do much would be a stretch."
"... for what it's worth, you can buy a PC notebook with at least as much computing power as your Athlon system and have an effective, portable, real-time HDV editing solution..." -->>>

I think you might confuse the poor guy.

The truth is, the Mac Mini is NOT a powerhouse, it was never meant to be. If you want to give Mac's a try and not have as much invested, it might be a good choice. Especially considering you don't even have an HDV camera yet.
The Mac Mini should hold up about as well as a Powerbook but you still need to consider the same upgrades. You're going to need more RAM, probably another drive (Firewire) and unfortunately the graphics card is stuck at the entry level. You may not even be able to install a program like Motion on this computer because of it, I don't know. It's NOT a good choice for a long term editing computer and by the time you get it loaded with upgrades you're getting a good start on a G5 price tag.
The Mac platform IS incredibly more stable than the Windoze platform (especially with the advent of OSX, yes, I do remember nightmares with SCSI termination pre-OSX) but this doesn't mean it is still fool-proof. Apple makes the hardware AND the software so it only makes sense that it would work better. Fundamentally the OS is more secure as well so there is a little more relief on that front as well. And coming to price, you absolutely HAVE to compare similarly configured systems before you can even start talking costs. Search the web and you will find the Dual G5 compared to Dual Xeon and Dual Opteron systems for performance so it doesn't make sense to compare it to a Celeron system on price. They aren't even in the same ballpark. Taking this into account, they aren't that far off and I've seen PLENTY of more expensive PC's.
If you want to see how others feel about the editing capabilities of the Mac Mini, do a search on these boards for "Mac Mini", there are several nice, informative reviews by both Mac and PC users but don't get too excited, the Mini was NEVER designed as an editing machine by any stretch of the imagination and the support for HDV on the Mac, for now, is fairly limited at best, but it WILL improve.
I don't want to dissuade you from buying a Mac, but choosing the very bottom of the product line to do the job of the top of the line isn't ever going to make you happy.

Boyd Ostroff · March 1st, 2005, 03:21 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw : When I used Macs I spent at least as much time fussing with hardware and software as I do now on PCs -->>>

My guess is that you haven't used a Mac recently. They finally came into their own following the release of MacOS X 10.2 (Jaguar) and keep getting better. There is really no comparison to MacOS 9 or the early versions of MacOS X. There were lots of problems with these, and performance wasn't what it should have been.

Of course, with any computer there will be issues but my recent experience with Windows XP on a fast laptop was really disappointing. It crashed frequently and just felt slow, especially doing housekeeping tasks like opening control panels and changing settings. My Macs hardly ever crash, and even the slower G4's feel very responsive. Anyway, if you want to run FCP you're gonna have to get a Mac :-)

Regarding the mini for HDV editing, I'd agree that doesn't make a lot of sense. By the time you beef it up with memory, the faster CPU and peripherals it won't look like such a bargain. Consider a used G4 tower, or a Powerbook if you can't go for the G5. If you just want a general purpose Mac to do some casual FCP editing I think the mini would be fine. As far as FCP HDV support goes, I'm sure we will see it soon, so if you can wait then that's your best course of action. Or in the meantime, there's always iMovie which comes free with every new Mac.

Kevin Shaw · March 1st, 2005, 04:26 PM

No, I haven't even looked at Macs since the G3s, since the PC platform has served me well and saved me a lot of money compared to what I would have spent on Macs over the past few years. As far as stability is concerned I haven't found this to be a big problem with PCs, but I suppose it stands to reason that a tightly controlled computer platform should be relatively trouble-free compared to an open one.

And in regards to pricing, this is an old debate which boils down to the fact that you *can* spend as much on a PC as on a Mac, but you don't have to. I just went on the Apple web site and found that a high-end G5 PowerMac with 2 GB of memory and two 250GB hard drives would cost me almost $4000. For about half that price I could put together a decent PC-based HDV editing setup complete with a full suite of video production software, and for the cost of the bare G5 I could have an awesome HDV editing system for which there is currently no Mac equivalent at any price. (Unless you count the option to use uncompressed HD editing for your HDV footage.) Pricing has always been a relative thing between the two platforms: people who really like Macs don't seem to care much what they have to pay.

Boyd Ostroff · March 1st, 2005, 04:50 PM

Platform wars are never very productive; use whatever hardware and software you like. However I think you have really hit on something here: "people who really like Macs don't seem to care much what they have to pay." I can't think of a better testimonial... :-)

Kevin Shaw · March 2nd, 2005, 03:16 AM

Within reason I think it can be beneficial to consider the latest advantages of each computer platform, and I hear more and more stories of people using both. For purposes of HDV editing the PC platform is currently far ahead of the Mac platform by any practical measure, but we'll see if that changes at NAB.

As someone I know likes to put it, buying a Mac solves the headache of having to pick from so many hardware and software options for PCs...

:-)

February 28th, 2005, 02:50 PM	#1
Gabriele Turchi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 56	Mac Mini:editing in realtime? Hi Everybody what do you think about to use Mac Mini to edit HDV? I mena with lumerie HD or in DVCPRO HD converted format? You think that the Mac Mini have the necessary power to edit in realtime? best regards Gabriele

February 28th, 2005, 10:03 PM	#2
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Re: Mac Mini:editing in realtime? <<<You think that the Mac Mini have the necessary power to edit in realtime?>>> I would very seriously doubt that, and if someone says it does I would ask them to elaborate on exactly what they can and can't do without rendering. Even high-end dual processor computers can only do so much in high definition in real time, so claiming a Mac Mini can do much would be a stretch. "Real time" means different things to different people. True real-time editing means you never have to render for any reason during capture, editing or output to see full-resolution, full frame rate video, regardless of the complexity of your project. That doesn't exist for HDV editing at this time, so the best you can ask for is a functionally effective compromise. Insist on finding out what the comromises are for your preferred editing solution.

February 28th, 2005, 10:53 PM	#3
Rhett Allen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 607	The Mac Mini wasn't designed as an editing computer in the first place, but, it isn't "THAT" much different than a Powerbook as far as the specs are concerned and plenty of people edit on those every day (myself included). I wouldn't get all excited about a ton realtime effects and such as it just doesn't have the power for that (although it is very respectable). It would be a nice little entry level machine though. If I were you I'd save my pennies (or Lira's or Euro's or whatever it is now) and get a G5 system (not an iMac either) or a used Dual G4 (my other system). You'll be much happier in the long run.

March 1st, 2005, 05:22 AM	#4
Gabriele Turchi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 56	Of Course the G5 is the REAL POWER!!! in my post for realtime,i mean the realtime explained by apple for FinalcutHD and Powerbook, so i want to understand if the MicaMini has the same Powerful than tha Powerbook, I am a PC user at the moment and i want try the Mac World with FinalCut Ecc(i want to try the Powerful of the Mac and the stability)....but i don't want to buy a Mac which have less or the same powerful than Athlon Xp3200+ If the MacMini have the same Powerful than the Powerbook.....i think it will be a good begin......and after if the MacWorld make me Entusiastic(i really think it will make me Entusiastic)i will buy the G5(and when i will have the money......) so, You think that the Macmini have the same potentiality that the Powerbook? Best regards Gabriele

March 1st, 2005, 09:02 AM	#5
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Gabriele: for what it's worth, you can buy a PC notebook with at least as much computing power as your Athlon system and have an effective, portable, real-time HDV editing solution, and the whole thing including software wouldn't have to cost any more than a bare-bones G5 PowerMac. You can't currently get this level of HDV editing performance from a PowerBook or Mac Mini, so it wouldn't make much sense right now to invest in the Mac platform for your purposes. And before you buy any Mac-based HD/HDV setup, you might want to read the following analysis of high-definition editing codecs: http://www.cineform.com/technology/HDQualityAnalysis10bit/HDQualityAnalysis10bit.htm In short, PCs currently offer more and better options than Macs for working with HDV. Maybe after NAB we'll see some new HDV solutions for Macs, so if you're really interested in the Mac platform you should wait a few weeks to see what develops.

March 1st, 2005, 09:23 AM	#6
Gabriele Turchi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 56	Thank Kevin, you probabily have reason,at the moment PC user have more possibility to edit HDV, but in this moment i don't have HDV camera(but i can use a FX1 of my friend to have a HDV clip),so i have not hurry my intention to buy Mac mini is to try the Mac World and start to work with Final Cut and Shake(i want uderstand the potentiality of that softwere) and i want to know if Mac Mini have the powerful to work with that softwere,after that experience i can decide to buy a G5 system. I know that today's PC are most powerful most Mac Mini,but i think that the Apple stability is better than the PC sistem stability, so i want to try that stability,and if that stabily are to much better i ill buy the Mac STABILITY and POWERFUL of the dual G5. best regards Gabriele

March 1st, 2005, 10:11 AM	#7
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	<<<i think that the Apple stability is better than the PC sistem stability, so i want to try that stability,and if that stabily are to much better i ill buy the Mac STABILITY and POWERFUL of the dual G5.>>> I've been doing video editing on PCs for several years now without significant stability issues. If you're having problems trouble-shooting technical issues with your PC then Macs may give you less headaches, but don't be too sure about that. When I used Macs I spent at least as much time fussing with hardware and software as I do now on PCs, but perhaps with a little less frustration. Just don't expect that getting a Mac will solve all your technical problems.

March 1st, 2005, 02:56 PM	#8
Rhett Allen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 607	<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw : "...Even high-end dual processor computers can only do so much in high definition in real time, so claiming a Mac Mini can do much would be a stretch." "... for what it's worth, you can buy a PC notebook with at least as much computing power as your Athlon system and have an effective, portable, real-time HDV editing solution..." -->>> I think you might confuse the poor guy. The truth is, the Mac Mini is NOT a powerhouse, it was never meant to be. If you want to give Mac's a try and not have as much invested, it might be a good choice. Especially considering you don't even have an HDV camera yet. The Mac Mini should hold up about as well as a Powerbook but you still need to consider the same upgrades. You're going to need more RAM, probably another drive (Firewire) and unfortunately the graphics card is stuck at the entry level. You may not even be able to install a program like Motion on this computer because of it, I don't know. It's NOT a good choice for a long term editing computer and by the time you get it loaded with upgrades you're getting a good start on a G5 price tag. The Mac platform IS incredibly more stable than the Windoze platform (especially with the advent of OSX, yes, I do remember nightmares with SCSI termination pre-OSX) but this doesn't mean it is still fool-proof. Apple makes the hardware AND the software so it only makes sense that it would work better. Fundamentally the OS is more secure as well so there is a little more relief on that front as well. And coming to price, you absolutely HAVE to compare similarly configured systems before you can even start talking costs. Search the web and you will find the Dual G5 compared to Dual Xeon and Dual Opteron systems for performance so it doesn't make sense to compare it to a Celeron system on price. They aren't even in the same ballpark. Taking this into account, they aren't that far off and I've seen PLENTY of more expensive PC's. If you want to see how others feel about the editing capabilities of the Mac Mini, do a search on these boards for "Mac Mini", there are several nice, informative reviews by both Mac and PC users but don't get too excited, the Mini was NEVER designed as an editing machine by any stretch of the imagination and the support for HDV on the Mac, for now, is fairly limited at best, but it WILL improve. I don't want to dissuade you from buying a Mac, but choosing the very bottom of the product line to do the job of the top of the line isn't ever going to make you happy.

March 1st, 2005, 03:21 PM	#9
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw : When I used Macs I spent at least as much time fussing with hardware and software as I do now on PCs -->>> My guess is that you haven't used a Mac recently. They finally came into their own following the release of MacOS X 10.2 (Jaguar) and keep getting better. There is really no comparison to MacOS 9 or the early versions of MacOS X. There were lots of problems with these, and performance wasn't what it should have been. Of course, with any computer there will be issues but my recent experience with Windows XP on a fast laptop was really disappointing. It crashed frequently and just felt slow, especially doing housekeeping tasks like opening control panels and changing settings. My Macs hardly ever crash, and even the slower G4's feel very responsive. Anyway, if you want to run FCP you're gonna have to get a Mac :-) Regarding the mini for HDV editing, I'd agree that doesn't make a lot of sense. By the time you beef it up with memory, the faster CPU and peripherals it won't look like such a bargain. Consider a used G4 tower, or a Powerbook if you can't go for the G5. If you just want a general purpose Mac to do some casual FCP editing I think the mini would be fine. As far as FCP HDV support goes, I'm sure we will see it soon, so if you can wait then that's your best course of action. Or in the meantime, there's always iMovie which comes free with every new Mac.

March 1st, 2005, 04:26 PM	#10
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	No, I haven't even looked at Macs since the G3s, since the PC platform has served me well and saved me a lot of money compared to what I would have spent on Macs over the past few years. As far as stability is concerned I haven't found this to be a big problem with PCs, but I suppose it stands to reason that a tightly controlled computer platform should be relatively trouble-free compared to an open one. And in regards to pricing, this is an old debate which boils down to the fact that you can spend as much on a PC as on a Mac, but you don't have to. I just went on the Apple web site and found that a high-end G5 PowerMac with 2 GB of memory and two 250GB hard drives would cost me almost $4000. For about half that price I could put together a decent PC-based HDV editing setup complete with a full suite of video production software, and for the cost of the bare G5 I could have an awesome HDV editing system for which there is currently no Mac equivalent at any price. (Unless you count the option to use uncompressed HD editing for your HDV footage.) Pricing has always been a relative thing between the two platforms: people who really like Macs don't seem to care much what they have to pay.

March 1st, 2005, 04:50 PM	#11
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Platform wars are never very productive; use whatever hardware and software you like. However I think you have really hit on something here: "people who really like Macs don't seem to care much what they have to pay." I can't think of a better testimonial... :-)

March 2nd, 2005, 03:16 AM	#12
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Within reason I think it can be beneficial to consider the latest advantages of each computer platform, and I hear more and more stories of people using both. For purposes of HDV editing the PC platform is currently far ahead of the Mac platform by any practical measure, but we'll see if that changes at NAB. As someone I know likes to put it, buying a Mac solves the headache of having to pick from so many hardware and software options for PCs... :-)