Final Cut 7 and editing HDV advice, please at DVinfo.net

Greg Quinn · August 28th, 2009, 02:18 PM

For about two and a half years I've been working with Final Cut 5.0, editing a 24P HDV project shot on a V1U with a DR60 hard drive capturing, so the files were in M2T format (I didn't even know about the sony FCP plugin for the DR60, until I just did a search, but I believe that's only for FCP 6 and up). My workflow has been:

1. Use the MPEG Streamclip application to convert the M2T files to Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC)
2. Use Cinema Tools to remove the pulldown
3. Edit the 24P AIC on the timeline

I've now upgraded to Final Cut Studio 7.0, and I have another project I'm starting post on, also 24P M2T format. Can anyone suggest the best workflow for this? AIC files are huge, but I believe ProRes are even larger. Should I use the Sony plugin to import the M2T files and edit in HDV on the timeline, or use MPEG Streamclip to convert to a ProRes codec (which has the least deleterious effect on image quality?). ProRes 422 (Proxy)?
Previous posts seem to suggest editing in HDV without the pulldown removed, but I would think this might be strange?

Thanks for reading and your suggestions
Greg

Scott Anderson · August 28th, 2009, 05:03 PM

Actually, ProRes files can be significantly smaller than AIC.

AIC at 1080/60i clocks in at 14MB/sec, or 168Mb/s:

Final Cut Pro 5: About HDV and the Apple Intermediate Codec

ProRes 422 clocks in at 147Mb/s, ProRes422 (HQ) at 220, and the new ProRes422 (LT) at 102:

Apple - Final Cut Studio - Final Cut Pro 7 - Expanded ProRes

The downside to editing in native HDV is still, as it has always been, HUGE render times. sure, you'll only use 1/4 of the drive space, but you'll end up waiting 30 seconds for a 2-second transition to render - ugh!

It's far past time for AIC to be put to bed - I'd go ProRes 422 all the way. Also, if you shot native 24p, you should edit native 24p. As you've been doing, remove that pulldown and edit on a native 24p sequence.

Greg Quinn · August 29th, 2009, 12:03 PM

Thanks Scott; so it seems like ProRes 422 (HQ) could be the way to run instead of AIC.

Mike Chandler · August 31st, 2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Quinn

Thanks Scott; so it seems like ProRes 422 (HQ) could be the way to run instead of AIC.

Differences of opinion on whether to go with hq or not from an 8 bit source.

Alternatively, you could bring your hdv footage into fcp and use media manager to compress the files, then reconnect when editing is done.

Noah Kadner · August 31st, 2009, 08:21 AM

AIC is an older codec that gets little development. ProRes is brand new and receives a lot more development from Apple. It's far more efficient and higher quality than AIC. Personally I would never go with AIC when ProRes was available. Especially now with all of it's different data rates. Even the Proxy Prores looks pretty good and perfect for offline work.

Noah

Greg Quinn · August 31st, 2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah Kadner

Personally I would never go with AIC when ProRes was available.

Can I remove 3:2 pulldown from ProRes with Cinema Tools as I can with AIC?

Scott Anderson · August 31st, 2009, 09:14 AM

No difference in how Cinema Tools will allow you to remove pulldown.

Noah Kadner and Gary Adcock know what they're talking about, as much as anyone in this industry.

Look like ProRes (not HQ) is the sweet spot for your footage. Plus, you don't have to bump up to 220Mb/s, which is good news for your Hard Drive space and, apparently your CPU load.

Nicholas Barclay · November 10th, 2010, 04:47 AM

Hi Guys,

Sorry to jump in. I currently am running with a Canon XHA1S & Canon 7d, editing with Final Cut Studio 7.

I understand the preferred settings for the 7d footage is Apple ProRes however i am having trouble running the hdv footage through smoothly.

Can anyone lend me some advice in regard to running the XHA1S 1080 25p footage with the 7d 720 60p footage.

Much thanks, Nic

Per Johan Naesje · November 10th, 2010, 06:48 AM

Nic, to my knowledge you have to do some conversion to get a good mix of this footage!

I do mix footage from a Canon XLH1 and a Canon 7D myself quite often. The way I do it is to shoot in the same fps for both cameras. I set both the H1 and the 7D to 1080p25. Then in post I convert both of them to ProRes 422, work without any issue!
In some cases for slow motion footage I shoot in 720p50 or p60 with the 7D and then convert using Cinema Tools to 720p25.

So my advice will be to start shooting with the same fps for both cameras. Convert all footage to ProRes 422 before start to edit.

August 28th, 2009, 02:18 PM	#1
Greg Quinn Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 505	Final Cut 7 and editing HDV advice, please For about two and a half years I've been working with Final Cut 5.0, editing a 24P HDV project shot on a V1U with a DR60 hard drive capturing, so the files were in M2T format (I didn't even know about the sony FCP plugin for the DR60, until I just did a search, but I believe that's only for FCP 6 and up). My workflow has been: 1. Use the MPEG Streamclip application to convert the M2T files to Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC) 2. Use Cinema Tools to remove the pulldown 3. Edit the 24P AIC on the timeline I've now upgraded to Final Cut Studio 7.0, and I have another project I'm starting post on, also 24P M2T format. Can anyone suggest the best workflow for this? AIC files are huge, but I believe ProRes are even larger. Should I use the Sony plugin to import the M2T files and edit in HDV on the timeline, or use MPEG Streamclip to convert to a ProRes codec (which has the least deleterious effect on image quality?). ProRes 422 (Proxy)? Previous posts seem to suggest editing in HDV without the pulldown removed, but I would think this might be strange? Thanks for reading and your suggestions Greg

November 10th, 2010, 04:47 AM	#8
Nicholas Barclay Tourist Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Perth Posts: 3	Codec Issues Hi Guys, Sorry to jump in. I currently am running with a Canon XHA1S & Canon 7d, editing with Final Cut Studio 7. I understand the preferred settings for the 7d footage is Apple ProRes however i am having trouble running the hdv footage through smoothly. Can anyone lend me some advice in regard to running the XHA1S 1080 25p footage with the 7d 720 60p footage. Much thanks, Nic

November 10th, 2010, 06:48 AM	#9
Per Johan Naesje Trustee Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Akershus, Norway Posts: 1,413	Nic, to my knowledge you have to do some conversion to get a good mix of this footage! I do mix footage from a Canon XLH1 and a Canon 7D myself quite often. The way I do it is to shoot in the same fps for both cameras. I set both the H1 and the 7D to 1080p25. Then in post I convert both of them to ProRes 422, work without any issue! In some cases for slow motion footage I shoot in 720p50 or p60 with the 7D and then convert using Cinema Tools to 720p25. So my advice will be to start shooting with the same fps for both cameras. Convert all footage to ProRes 422 before start to edit. __________________ - Per Johan

August 28th, 2009, 05:03 PM	#2
Scott Anderson Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 327	Actually, ProRes files can be significantly smaller than AIC. AIC at 1080/60i clocks in at 14MB/sec, or 168Mb/s: Final Cut Pro 5: About HDV and the Apple Intermediate Codec ProRes 422 clocks in at 147Mb/s, ProRes422 (HQ) at 220, and the new ProRes422 (LT) at 102: Apple - Final Cut Studio - Final Cut Pro 7 - Expanded ProRes The downside to editing in native HDV is still, as it has always been, HUGE render times. sure, you'll only use 1/4 of the drive space, but you'll end up waiting 30 seconds for a 2-second transition to render - ugh! It's far past time for AIC to be put to bed - I'd go ProRes 422 all the way. Also, if you shot native 24p, you should edit native 24p. As you've been doing, remove that pulldown and edit on a native 24p sequence.

August 29th, 2009, 12:03 PM	#3
Greg Quinn Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 505	Thanks Scott; so it seems like ProRes 422 (HQ) could be the way to run instead of AIC.

August 31st, 2009, 08:21 AM	#5
Noah Kadner Better than Halle Berry Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 435	AIC is an older codec that gets little development. ProRes is brand new and receives a lot more development from Apple. It's far more efficient and higher quality than AIC. Personally I would never go with AIC when ProRes was available. Especially now with all of it's different data rates. Even the Proxy Prores looks pretty good and perfect for offline work. Noah

August 31st, 2009, 09:14 AM	#7
Scott Anderson Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 327	No difference in how Cinema Tools will allow you to remove pulldown. Noah Kadner and Gary Adcock know what they're talking about, as much as anyone in this industry. Look like ProRes (not HQ) is the sweet spot for your footage. Plus, you don't have to bump up to 220Mb/s, which is good news for your Hard Drive space and, apparently your CPU load.