Worth upgrading to Snow Leopard for FC?

Robert Lane · August 31st, 2009, 07:23 PM

It would seem that Apple has instead released a "white elephant" rather than a Snow Leopard.

With all the research in white-papers and ADC docs there didn't seem to be anything to indicate any serious compatibility issues however, real-world testing has shown that once again Apple has delivered a wonderful glossy ad campaign only to disappoint on the delivery.

We've uncovered and run into literally dozens of bugs and mission-critical failures caused by the SL kernel and core communication changes. Everything from FCP6 to FW has been affected adversely and the net is flooded with complaints - including a few DVinfo users - on failures from connecting previously running external devices to apps that crash the entire system.

And then there's this bit of not-so-obvious news on the 64-bit environment which I did not see covered in any white-papers:

64-bit Snow Leopard defaults to 32-bit kernel | Apple - CNET News

The bottom-line for pro-app users: Don't upgrade to SL. If you did hopefully you saved your previous OS image (see the sticky I posted about saving your system) and can restore your previously good-running system.

It may well be into next year before Apple has time and resources to address all the problems just now surfacing.

P2, SxS and ExpressCard users especially beware: DO NOT attempt to use your external devices or connect media with money-making clips to a SL system.

Christopher Drews · August 31st, 2009, 07:33 PM

As much as I work with P2, I'm holding off until they address this driver issue. If I never plug in a Panasonic camera with firewire/usb that'd be fine with me. My love for duel adapter and MBP is too important. Also, can anyone confirm MXO 1 & 2 support in SL?
-C

Chris Leffler · August 31st, 2009, 08:57 PM

I really don't hope it takes that long for them to fix the Express Card problem.

Robert Lane · August 31st, 2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Leffler

I really don't hope it takes that long for them to fix the Express Card problem.

Don't wait for them to play catch-up; get back on 10.5.8 and get back to work. Until all the major pro apps actually become 64-bit native there's really no need for SL. Only Apple consumer apps (and a limited few) will actually benefit, nothing else.

Chuck Fadely · September 1st, 2009, 08:26 AM

I don't think Snow Leopard is a 'white elephant' at all. It's a major change in the operating system and some things won't work for a while... just like switching from OS9 or switching from Win2k to XP to Vista to 7.... no one in their right mind would switch a production machine over to a new OS until the workflow got straightened out.

But, if speed is important to you, Snow Leopard's new Qucktime engine is worth the hassle. So far, it looks like it will cut 20 minutes off my overall output times for 2 minute news pieces.

Michael Wisniewski · September 1st, 2009, 09:01 AM

Chuck, after all your experimentation, what's your current workflow in Snow Leopard? Where have you seen the most significant speed improvements when encoding video?

Chuck Fadely · September 1st, 2009, 10:19 AM

Michael, I installed Snow Leopard and FCS3 on a MacBook Pro on Friday. A weekend isn't enough time to figure out all the workflow issues.

But if you output from FCP at 'current settings' it is really fast. A two-minute HDV timeline makes a self-contained .mov in less than two minutes.

If you then pull that self-contained .mov into Quicktime Player X, and do a 'save as' at HD 480 P movie setting, you get a 640x360 h.264 file with 44khz audio in less than two minutes. (You have no control of settings.) If you output from Quicktime7Pro so you can control the settings, it's still faster than it used to be... maybe ten minutes to make a web file on my MBP vs 18 minutes to do the same thing on my 8-core Mac Pro running 10.5.6/QT7.6. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like the speedup extends to FCS3's new 'share' menu, but I haven't tested that much.

A totally separate workflow speedup unrelated to Snow Leopard has to do with Log & Transfer and Pro Res Proxy settings in FCS3. If you use a camera that can transcode to ProRes(proxy) through log & transfer and you can live with 1920x1080 footage with good color but low bit rate, you'll feel like you've been born again. No rendering for anything at any point. I can't figure out a way to capture tape into proxy files, though.

hope this helps.

Robert Lane · September 1st, 2009, 02:27 PM

Because SL is being installed as an "upgrade" rather than a clean install this seems to be the source of most of the troubles. It would be inconceivable that a new 17" MBP that ships with SL could not use it's ExpressCard adapter for all the things it's supposed to.

I don't have time to test this further but so far many of the bugs and failures seem to be around the upgrade path rather than a clean install. Unfortunately most people don't have time to make a clean install.

Don Miller · September 1st, 2009, 03:21 PM

Anyone running the Sonnet Pro esata card should be fine. This is the fastest esata card that doesn't use the SIL chipset. I believe its only the sil3132 that's the problem.
No one should ever update any business/production machine on the release of a new O.S. So I'm not sure the drama here is necessary. Apple touched a huge amount of the code in OSX. I think the moderate number of reported problems should be expected.
Snow Leopard is like the switch to Intel. Important to do for the long view. If FCS has some problems, they shouldn't take long to fix.

Greg Quinn · September 1st, 2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Miller

If FCS has some problems, they shouldn't take long to fix.

you can't argue with a confident man.. (Napoleon Wilson, "Assault on Precinct 13")

Chris Leffler · September 1st, 2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Because SL is being installed as an "upgrade" rather than a clean install this seems to be the source of most of the troubles. It would be inconceivable that a new 17" MBP that ships with SL could not use it's ExpressCard adapter for all the things it's supposed to.

I don't have time to test this further but so far many of the bugs and failures seem to be around the upgrade path rather than a clean install. Unfortunately most people don't have time to make a clean install.

I am not really sure how to even do a fresh install. It seems like a fresh install is kinda hard for me considering my machine is used both for my school work and for my projects.

Jason Lowe · September 1st, 2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Leffler

I am not really sure how to even do a fresh install. It seems like a fresh install is kinda hard for me considering my machine is used both for my school work and for my projects.

If you back up with Time Machine, you can restore everything after the OS install. I think you'll lose any bootcamp partition though.

Chris Leffler · September 1st, 2009, 08:38 PM

Well loosing Boot Camp is probably something I can't afford right now. I guess I will just stick with 10.5.8. Plus who knows if a fresh install of SL will make my express card work. Seems like a lot of work for a decent chance of it not even being useful.

Nick Gordon · September 2nd, 2009, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Leffler

I am not really sure how to even do a fresh install. It seems like a fresh install is kinda hard for me considering my machine is used both for my school work and for my projects.

This is how I did it. The preparation took a while, but the install was pretty quick:

1. Downloaded Carbon Copy Cloner (free backup app)
2. Backed up my entire hard drive to an external disk. Doing this makes the external disk bootable, which is a nice get of jail free card (just in case)
3. Inserted SL DVD and started install. When the Mac restarted at the beginning of the process, selected Utilities menu, Disk Utility, and Erased my hard drive.
4. Continued with SL install. Now I have a choice. SL Installer asks if I want to migrate User Accounts, Documents, Applications etc from a backup. I chose this (the alternative is to choose No, and then after the install completes, go to Applications, Utilities, Migration Assistant, and do it then.

Net result - fresh SL install, with all key apps, docs and user data updated.

Chris Leffler · September 2nd, 2009, 10:14 AM

Yes, but will this fix the Express Card problem?

August 31st, 2009, 07:23 PM	#31
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	Absolutely Not It would seem that Apple has instead released a "white elephant" rather than a Snow Leopard. With all the research in white-papers and ADC docs there didn't seem to be anything to indicate any serious compatibility issues however, real-world testing has shown that once again Apple has delivered a wonderful glossy ad campaign only to disappoint on the delivery. We've uncovered and run into literally dozens of bugs and mission-critical failures caused by the SL kernel and core communication changes. Everything from FCP6 to FW has been affected adversely and the net is flooded with complaints - including a few DVinfo users - on failures from connecting previously running external devices to apps that crash the entire system. And then there's this bit of not-so-obvious news on the 64-bit environment which I did not see covered in any white-papers: 64-bit Snow Leopard defaults to 32-bit kernel \| Apple - CNET News The bottom-line for pro-app users: Don't upgrade to SL. If you did hopefully you saved your previous OS image (see the sticky I posted about saving your system) and can restore your previously good-running system. It may well be into next year before Apple has time and resources to address all the problems just now surfacing. P2, SxS and ExpressCard users especially beware: DO NOT attempt to use your external devices or connect media with money-making clips to a SL system. Last edited by Robert Lane; August 31st, 2009 at 09:09 PM.

September 1st, 2009, 09:01 AM	#36
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	Chuck, after all your experimentation, what's your current workflow in Snow Leopard? Where have you seen the most significant speed improvements when encoding video? __________________ "Ultimately, the most extraordinary thing, in a frame, is a human being." - Martin Scorsese

September 1st, 2009, 08:38 PM	#43
Chris Leffler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wescosville, PA Posts: 90	Well loosing Boot Camp is probably something I can't afford right now. I guess I will just stick with 10.5.8. Plus who knows if a fresh install of SL will make my express card work. Seems like a lot of work for a decent chance of it not even being useful. Last edited by Chris Leffler; September 1st, 2009 at 09:44 PM.

August 31st, 2009, 07:33 PM	#32
Christopher Drews Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 628	As much as I work with P2, I'm holding off until they address this driver issue. If I never plug in a Panasonic camera with firewire/usb that'd be fine with me. My love for duel adapter and MBP is too important. Also, can anyone confirm MXO 1 & 2 support in SL? -C

August 31st, 2009, 08:57 PM	#33
Chris Leffler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wescosville, PA Posts: 90	I really don't hope it takes that long for them to fix the Express Card problem.

September 1st, 2009, 08:26 AM	#35
Chuck Fadely Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: United States Posts: 306	I don't think Snow Leopard is a 'white elephant' at all. It's a major change in the operating system and some things won't work for a while... just like switching from OS9 or switching from Win2k to XP to Vista to 7.... no one in their right mind would switch a production machine over to a new OS until the workflow got straightened out. But, if speed is important to you, Snow Leopard's new Qucktime engine is worth the hassle. So far, it looks like it will cut 20 minutes off my overall output times for 2 minute news pieces.

September 1st, 2009, 10:19 AM	#37
Chuck Fadely Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: United States Posts: 306	Michael, I installed Snow Leopard and FCS3 on a MacBook Pro on Friday. A weekend isn't enough time to figure out all the workflow issues. But if you output from FCP at 'current settings' it is really fast. A two-minute HDV timeline makes a self-contained .mov in less than two minutes. If you then pull that self-contained .mov into Quicktime Player X, and do a 'save as' at HD 480 P movie setting, you get a 640x360 h.264 file with 44khz audio in less than two minutes. (You have no control of settings.) If you output from Quicktime7Pro so you can control the settings, it's still faster than it used to be... maybe ten minutes to make a web file on my MBP vs 18 minutes to do the same thing on my 8-core Mac Pro running 10.5.6/QT7.6. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like the speedup extends to FCS3's new 'share' menu, but I haven't tested that much. A totally separate workflow speedup unrelated to Snow Leopard has to do with Log & Transfer and Pro Res Proxy settings in FCS3. If you use a camera that can transcode to ProRes(proxy) through log & transfer and you can live with 1920x1080 footage with good color but low bit rate, you'll feel like you've been born again. No rendering for anything at any point. I can't figure out a way to capture tape into proxy files, though. hope this helps.

September 1st, 2009, 02:27 PM	#38
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	Because SL is being installed as an "upgrade" rather than a clean install this seems to be the source of most of the troubles. It would be inconceivable that a new 17" MBP that ships with SL could not use it's ExpressCard adapter for all the things it's supposed to. I don't have time to test this further but so far many of the bugs and failures seem to be around the upgrade path rather than a clean install. Unfortunately most people don't have time to make a clean install.

September 1st, 2009, 03:21 PM	#39
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	Anyone running the Sonnet Pro esata card should be fine. This is the fastest esata card that doesn't use the SIL chipset. I believe its only the sil3132 that's the problem. No one should ever update any business/production machine on the release of a new O.S. So I'm not sure the drama here is necessary. Apple touched a huge amount of the code in OSX. I think the moderate number of reported problems should be expected. Snow Leopard is like the switch to Intel. Important to do for the long view. If FCS has some problems, they shouldn't take long to fix.

September 2nd, 2009, 10:14 AM	#45
Chris Leffler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wescosville, PA Posts: 90	Yes, but will this fix the Express Card problem?