What about our Audio tracks? FCP is limited? at DVinfo.net

Mark Monciardini · January 5th, 2004, 02:43 AM

Final Cut is great for video but I've noticed that the audio portion of it really blows? I mean it doesn't even have a Normalize feature. After coming from Vegas Video, it's like having a strip model Toyota. I figured by version 4 they would have better audio stuff by now. But gosh you are so limited.

What do you guys do on the jobs where audio is just as important as the video. Another program?

Am I missing something or is the audio control in FCP very limited? All Audio effects need to be applied clip by clip?

They really edit hollywood films with this thing? Come on now, you have to be pulling my leg. Or maybe I don't know where the surround sound button is.

Rob Lohman · January 5th, 2004, 06:20 AM

First note: some (only a few) hollywood movies are indeed
EDITED on FCP. They are not saying they are doing the sound
mixing on FCP (which they almost certainly aren't doing). A
lot of audio mixes is done on ProTools (on the mac mostly).

Searching a bit on the normalize thing I found this piece:

" When I have the need to filter more than a trivial
part of the audio, I use the (included) Bias PEAK audio editor, which
integrates pretty well and is better suited to audio editing than any
NLE. Although its changes aren't reversible "

And this:

" As people have told you time and time again, normalize is NOT missing.
It's simply provided as a part of Peak which comes free with EVERY
legitimate copy of FCP and integrates easily "

So it seems like you need to use the included Peak for that. Not
too user friendly indeed. Weird.

Jeff Donald · January 5th, 2004, 08:00 AM

Yes, you need to use the included BIAS products. If you need additional audio work done beyond the BIAS products look at ProTools (as Rob suggests) or Logic Platnum 6, which is owned by Apple. FCP 4 is not meant as an all in one solution. It integrates well with the Apple Family of digital production software such as Shake, Logic, DVD studio Pro, and FCP. Over the past few years Apple has incorporated stand alone products (such as Cinema Tools) into FCP. I would expect the audio features of FCP to see greater integration with Logic in the near future.

Glenn Chan · January 5th, 2004, 10:44 AM

Vegas started out as an audio editing program, which is why it's just so much better than every other NLE for doing audio editing.

FCP needs a 3rd party application for mixing. Which is ok, but not as convenient as Vegas where you can do it all in one program.

Ted Springer · January 5th, 2004, 02:08 PM

Peak isn't great for mixing. It only lets you deal with one file at a time. What it IS good for is recording, breaking down audio clips, running a filter or two. Bias Peak has at least 5 levels of Undo or more, so changes can indeed be reversed.

I do Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX mixes inside of Final Cut Pro literally all the time. It's just a matter of exporting 6 individual mono tracks to encode to AC-3. The results truly do kick ass. If you have eMagic (no, it doesn't only work with eMacs) then you can mix the audio in 5.1 in real time in your screening room (everyone has a screening room). There is no "surround button". That's just silly.

I am not disappointed at all in FCP's audio capabilities.

By the way, it sounds like you are trolling. You came in here saying how "our" product is weak.

Mark Monciardini · January 5th, 2004, 04:29 PM

Ted,

I'm not trolling at all. I'm a recent switcher and am still new to the Mac world. Although I grew up on Macs and left when Windows 95 came out. I love my new G5, it rocks.

Anyway. I have an extensive audio background and sound production is a big deal to me (control is everything). On the PC they have a program called WaveLab which is hands down the best audio tool software available. But unfortunately Steinberg does not have a MAC version of this program.

So being a little bummed out leaving Wave Lab, I have yet to find an Audio editor for the Mac that comes close to the professionalism and control that wave lab had. I do have Peak and to be honest I am not that impressed with it, and I feel "forced" to use it because it is more stable then "Spark XL". Spark almost hits the mark but it has many bugs and the timeline has many restrictions that can be very frustrating.

Never did audio for video with an external editor before so I'm still new to it. There are many times where you need to match audio to video and it's very difficult if you are in a 3rd party editor and you can not see the video. This is part of my frustration because adjusting levels in FCP is not very user friendly.

Anyway, I'm getting it worked out over here. I do appreciate the feedback. Logic 6 looks really tasty. Thanks!

Ted Springer · January 5th, 2004, 05:57 PM

Logic Audio will allow you to sync the sound to the picture, and you get to use an external mixing board as well. Not cheap.

Patrick Grealy · January 6th, 2004, 04:00 AM

I do all my audio post in Logic Platinum V6.3 and have a Logic control surface (my background is on the audio side) and believe that FCX/FCP audio side is severely lacking and not conducive to proper audio editing (rendering audio edits before being able to hear the effect!!)

I also find that the audio monitoring in FCX/FCP is undependable as I often find that it fails to see my USB audio I/o and end up hearing the speaker on my G5 instead of my Genlecs!

Also, importing and rendering .mp3 files in FCX/FCP generates audio glitches on my G5.

FCX/FCP is fine for time line assembly of FINISHED audio mixes but I would not edit/eq/compress etc in FCX/FCP

Also 5.1 in Logic is good and I can bypass FCX/FCP and go straight to A Pack.

Regards P

Sharon Fraats · January 6th, 2004, 04:31 AM

Nuendo 2, WaveLab 4.0 and who could not forget Cubase with all those VST plug-ins that are available to choose from Steinberg is one of the best apps for the Mac and for FCP.

BIAS, BitHeadz, and yes one of my all time favorites Native Instruments

ReBirth 2.0.1, Logic Platinum, or Nuendo 2 are something to look at.

Mike Butler · January 9th, 2004, 05:09 PM

I agree with Patrick that having to render an audio edit before hearing the results is not top-shelf. Fortunately most of what I do is timeline editing and not heavy-duty mixing....although it is tempting to bite the bullet and get Logic.

Patrick Grealy · January 12th, 2004, 03:31 AM

Given Apples purchase of emagic. I'd expect thet FCP will soon incorporate many of Logic's features. (real time audio rendering)

Regards P

Mike Butler · January 12th, 2004, 11:13 AM

That'll be nice, Patrick. Of course it will involve buying (another) new version of FCP! Arrrgh!
Oh well, that's Apple.

January 5th, 2004, 02:43 AM	#1
Mark Monciardini Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 158	What about our Audio tracks? FCP is limited? Final Cut is great for video but I've noticed that the audio portion of it really blows? I mean it doesn't even have a Normalize feature. After coming from Vegas Video, it's like having a strip model Toyota. I figured by version 4 they would have better audio stuff by now. But gosh you are so limited. What do you guys do on the jobs where audio is just as important as the video. Another program? Am I missing something or is the audio control in FCP very limited? All Audio effects need to be applied clip by clip? They really edit hollywood films with this thing? Come on now, you have to be pulling my leg. Or maybe I don't know where the surround sound button is. __________________ Best Regards, Mark T. Monciardini Riverlight Studios www.riverlightstudios.com DVX100/Final Cut Pro 4/Mac G5 Dual 1.8

January 5th, 2004, 06:20 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	First note: some (only a few) hollywood movies are indeed EDITED on FCP. They are not saying they are doing the sound mixing on FCP (which they almost certainly aren't doing). A lot of audio mixes is done on ProTools (on the mac mostly). Searching a bit on the normalize thing I found this piece: " When I have the need to filter more than a trivial part of the audio, I use the (included) Bias PEAK audio editor, which integrates pretty well and is better suited to audio editing than any NLE. Although its changes aren't reversible " And this: " As people have told you time and time again, normalize is NOT missing. It's simply provided as a part of Peak which comes free with EVERY legitimate copy of FCP and integrates easily " So it seems like you need to use the included Peak for that. Not too user friendly indeed. Weird. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 5th, 2004, 08:00 AM	#3
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Yes, you need to use the included BIAS products. If you need additional audio work done beyond the BIAS products look at ProTools (as Rob suggests) or Logic Platnum 6, which is owned by Apple. FCP 4 is not meant as an all in one solution. It integrates well with the Apple Family of digital production software such as Shake, Logic, DVD studio Pro, and FCP. Over the past few years Apple has incorporated stand alone products (such as Cinema Tools) into FCP. I would expect the audio features of FCP to see greater integration with Logic in the near future. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 5th, 2004, 04:29 PM	#6
Mark Monciardini Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 158	Ted, I'm not trolling at all. I'm a recent switcher and am still new to the Mac world. Although I grew up on Macs and left when Windows 95 came out. I love my new G5, it rocks. Anyway. I have an extensive audio background and sound production is a big deal to me (control is everything). On the PC they have a program called WaveLab which is hands down the best audio tool software available. But unfortunately Steinberg does not have a MAC version of this program. So being a little bummed out leaving Wave Lab, I have yet to find an Audio editor for the Mac that comes close to the professionalism and control that wave lab had. I do have Peak and to be honest I am not that impressed with it, and I feel "forced" to use it because it is more stable then "Spark XL". Spark almost hits the mark but it has many bugs and the timeline has many restrictions that can be very frustrating. Never did audio for video with an external editor before so I'm still new to it. There are many times where you need to match audio to video and it's very difficult if you are in a 3rd party editor and you can not see the video. This is part of my frustration because adjusting levels in FCP is not very user friendly. Anyway, I'm getting it worked out over here. I do appreciate the feedback. Logic 6 looks really tasty. Thanks! __________________ Best Regards, Mark T. Monciardini Riverlight Studios www.riverlightstudios.com DVX100/Final Cut Pro 4/Mac G5 Dual 1.8

January 6th, 2004, 04:00 AM	#8
Patrick Grealy Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 90	I do all my audio post in Logic Platinum V6.3 and have a Logic control surface (my background is on the audio side) and believe that FCX/FCP audio side is severely lacking and not conducive to proper audio editing (rendering audio edits before being able to hear the effect!!) I also find that the audio monitoring in FCX/FCP is undependable as I often find that it fails to see my USB audio I/o and end up hearing the speaker on my G5 instead of my Genlecs! Also, importing and rendering .mp3 files in FCX/FCP generates audio glitches on my G5. FCX/FCP is fine for time line assembly of FINISHED audio mixes but I would not edit/eq/compress etc in FCX/FCP Also 5.1 in Logic is good and I can bypass FCX/FCP and go straight to A Pack. Regards P __________________ Sony PDX10 by 2, DRS-11, Dual G5, FCX, DVDSP and Logic Plat. www.VarsityMusicVideo.com

January 5th, 2004, 10:44 AM	#4
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Vegas started out as an audio editing program, which is why it's just so much better than every other NLE for doing audio editing. FCP needs a 3rd party application for mixing. Which is ok, but not as convenient as Vegas where you can do it all in one program.

January 5th, 2004, 02:08 PM	#5
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	Peak isn't great for mixing. It only lets you deal with one file at a time. What it IS good for is recording, breaking down audio clips, running a filter or two. Bias Peak has at least 5 levels of Undo or more, so changes can indeed be reversed. I do Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX mixes inside of Final Cut Pro literally all the time. It's just a matter of exporting 6 individual mono tracks to encode to AC-3. The results truly do kick ass. If you have eMagic (no, it doesn't only work with eMacs) then you can mix the audio in 5.1 in real time in your screening room (everyone has a screening room). There is no "surround button". That's just silly. I am not disappointed at all in FCP's audio capabilities. By the way, it sounds like you are trolling. You came in here saying how "our" product is weak.

January 5th, 2004, 05:57 PM	#7
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	Logic Audio will allow you to sync the sound to the picture, and you get to use an external mixing board as well. Not cheap.

January 6th, 2004, 04:31 AM	#9
Sharon Fraats Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: chicago, ill Posts: 190	Nuendo 2, WaveLab 4.0 and who could not forget Cubase with all those VST plug-ins that are available to choose from Steinberg is one of the best apps for the Mac and for FCP. BIAS, BitHeadz, and yes one of my all time favorites Native Instruments ReBirth 2.0.1, Logic Platinum, or Nuendo 2 are something to look at.

January 9th, 2004, 05:09 PM	#10
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	I agree with Patrick that having to render an audio edit before hearing the results is not top-shelf. Fortunately most of what I do is timeline editing and not heavy-duty mixing....although it is tempting to bite the bullet and get Logic. __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

January 12th, 2004, 03:31 AM	#11
Patrick Grealy Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 90	Given Apples purchase of emagic. I'd expect thet FCP will soon incorporate many of Logic's features. (real time audio rendering) Regards P __________________ Sony PDX10 by 2, DRS-11, Dual G5, FCX, DVDSP and Logic Plat. www.VarsityMusicVideo.com

January 12th, 2004, 11:13 AM	#12
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	That'll be nice, Patrick. Of course it will involve buying (another) new version of FCP! Arrrgh! Oh well, that's Apple. __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."