ProRes question at DVinfo.net

Brandon Freeman · March 27th, 2009, 06:54 PM

Option 1: I edit HDV clips with effects and transitions on a ProRes timeline and render out ProRes

Option 2: I edit ProRes clips (captured or transcoded from HDV) with effects and transitions on a ProRes timeline and render out ProRes

Is there a difference in quality on final render out, since the end result is ProRes regardless?

Robert Lane · March 27th, 2009, 08:08 PM

The question is, what is your final output going to? DVD, HD-screencast, film-out, etc.

ProRes does offer higher-quality rendering for filters and effects but you'll only notice them on high-bandwidth HD playback. If you're downcoverting to DVD for example you'll never notice a difference and editing in native HDV is just fine.

Benjamin Hill · March 27th, 2009, 08:26 PM

I wouldn't recommend transcoding all your HDV media to ProRes. Regardless of how you output, editing HDV with ProRes renders is a more efficient way to get you the same quality results with much less demand for hard drive space and processing power.

Brandon Freeman · March 27th, 2009, 09:06 PM

I'm going to DVD, but I prefer to approach a project, leaving future possibilities (i.e. Blu-ray) open.

I'm thinking, edit in HDV, then, when it's time go color correct and render out to final, convert just the files that I need to ProRes and swap them.

Noah Kadner · March 27th, 2009, 09:14 PM

Yeah you could do that very easily with Media Manager- just manage the final HDV edit and recompress to ProRes. Then you can fire over to Color, etc.

Noah

Luke Tingle · March 27th, 2009, 10:04 PM

(directed at original post) I wouldn't think it would matter which way you did it. Either way you're converting to pro res.

Personally, I just capture straight from tape to pro res, saves time and the frustration of editing in HDV.

Christopher Glavan · March 27th, 2009, 11:40 PM

Ok I thought I was pretty adept with FCS, but suddenly I find myself not knowing things. First, I've not worked with Media Manager. Where can I find out more about it? Second, in all my experiences capturing from tape I've transcoded HDV to ProRes- I've never captured straight to ProRes. Is that only possible using a deck, or can you capture ProRes straight from cam? What's your process?

Thanks all!

Luke Tingle · March 28th, 2009, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Glavan

Ok I thought I was pretty adept with FCS, but suddenly I find myself not knowing things. First, I've not worked with Media Manager. Where can I find out more about it? Second, in all my experiences capturing from tape I've transcoded HDV to ProRes- I've never captured straight to ProRes. Is that only possible using a deck, or can you capture ProRes straight from cam? What's your process?

Thanks all!

Media Manager is at File>Media Manager. Basically it copies all or some of the media used in a sequence to a single folder and project, with some additional options, one of them being the option to convert the footage simultaneously.

Capture Pro Res from HDV (FCP 6 only):

Not sure if your camera is compatible , don't see why it wouldn't be though, set up your project for whatever HDV codec you're using (1080i, 1080p etc.), then go to File>Audio/Video Settings>Capture Preset and select the "HDV-Apple ProRes " codec.

Rewind your tape. Open Log and Capture and a window asking what to name the reel will pop up. Name it then enter. Then It will capture the entire tape, splitting each clip at the start and stop marks on the tape (you will not see any clips in the bin until it is done).
Once it's done you will have all of your HDV clips converted to Pro Rez in your bin. It should be a near real time process, or real time if you have a fast mac.

Two drawbacks- no way to batch capture from the tape and no way to edit to tape this way. Other than that, it's a pretty cool feature.

Shaun Roemich · March 28th, 2009, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Tingle

Two drawbacks- no way to batch capture from the tape and no way to edit to tape this way.

Third drawback: ProRes uses a LOT of drive space, which is ok if you've got lots.

That's the method I use to capture from my JVC ProHD 720P cameras. One thing you SHOULD change in teh capture preset though is the PreRoll number in seconds down to 1 second. If you should encounter a timecode break (not just a start/stop detection), the gap between usable segments becomes set by the PreRoll number. I experimented with my gear and 1 second was as low as I could make it and still have the ballistics on my gear get up to speed in time.

Aric Mannion · April 1st, 2009, 08:17 AM

I think there is a 3rd option, which is to capture and edit in HDV then change the sequence settings just before you export. HDV takes up very little space, and if I am editing HDV in a pro res timeline I have to render constantly as opposed to editing in it's native format.
Maybe you don't have this problem, but for me HDV makes sense until I need to export.

Mike Barber · April 1st, 2009, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Glavan

I've not worked with Media Manager. Where can I find out more about it?

Ummmm... the user manual? Remember when you bought your copy of FCP2, how it came with all those books? It's in Volume IV: Media Management and Output.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Glavan

I've never captured straight to ProRes. Is that only possible using a deck, or can you capture ProRes straight from cam?

The codec being captured to -- be it ProRes, DV, Photo-JPEG, whatever -- is inconsequential to the device from which the footage is coming as it is all handled by the machine doing the ingest, which is your computer.

Aric Mannion · April 2nd, 2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Barber

Ummmm... the user manual? Remember when you bought your copy of FCP2, how it came with all those books? It's in Volume IV: Media Management and Output.

The codec being captured to -- be it ProRes, DV, Photo-JPEG, whatever -- is inconsequential to the device from which the footage is coming as it is all handled by the machine doing the ingest, which is your computer.

Most people can't capture in pro res at all (Like me) unless they have a capture card.

Benjamin Hill · April 2nd, 2009, 09:37 AM

As of FCP 6.0.2 you can transcode HDV to ProRes during Firewire capture:

Final*Cut*Pro*6 Release*Notes

Brandon Freeman · April 4th, 2009, 09:48 AM

I would assume, though, while capturing ProRes, you are basically skipping the step of having HDV files but still are transcoding from the .m2t on the tape to ProRes (hence the delay), correct? With hard drive space a critical issue, I think I would prefer to work with HDV files and then convert to ProRes before final render -- that way I'm only converting the takes needed. Or perhaps, I don't even need to do that? Is rendering out ProRes from the timeline the same even as converting on capture?

A lot of this is made interesting by the fact I use a FireStore, so I've got the .m2t on my computer, not the tape.

David McGiffert · April 4th, 2009, 11:00 AM

I have had the best results using a workflow that is
editing in HDV and render effects etc. in ProRes,
then outputting to a ProRes self-contained QT movie to be taken into Compressor.
It makes great DVD's with a little tweaking in Compressor (sharpening a smidge
and sometimes dropping the gamma .3 of a point if I want the blacks
more prominent).

Editing in ProRes, as many have said, eats up a ton of drive space.

Sometimes taking the time to do a little testing of different methods
is well worth the results.

March 27th, 2009, 06:54 PM	#1
Brandon Freeman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 226	ProRes question Option 1: I edit HDV clips with effects and transitions on a ProRes timeline and render out ProRes Option 2: I edit ProRes clips (captured or transcoded from HDV) with effects and transitions on a ProRes timeline and render out ProRes Is there a difference in quality on final render out, since the end result is ProRes regardless? __________________ Canon EOS 7D, Final Cut Studio 2

March 27th, 2009, 08:26 PM	#3
Benjamin Hill Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Iowa City, Iowa Posts: 670	I wouldn't recommend transcoding all your HDV media to ProRes. Regardless of how you output, editing HDV with ProRes renders is a more efficient way to get you the same quality results with much less demand for hard drive space and processing power. __________________ youtube.com/benhillmedia linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia

March 27th, 2009, 09:06 PM	#4
Brandon Freeman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 226	I'm going to DVD, but I prefer to approach a project, leaving future possibilities (i.e. Blu-ray) open. I'm thinking, edit in HDV, then, when it's time go color correct and render out to final, convert just the files that I need to ProRes and swap them. __________________ Canon EOS 7D, Final Cut Studio 2

March 27th, 2009, 11:40 PM	#7
Christopher Glavan Major Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 260	Ok I thought I was pretty adept with FCS, but suddenly I find myself not knowing things. First, I've not worked with Media Manager. Where can I find out more about it? Second, in all my experiences capturing from tape I've transcoded HDV to ProRes- I've never captured straight to ProRes. Is that only possible using a deck, or can you capture ProRes straight from cam? What's your process? Thanks all! __________________ Reel Impressions Media - Make it more than a memory GY-HD100- 7D- PSC Promix 3- Lectro/Sennheiser- Zoom H4- MPB- CS6/CC

April 2nd, 2009, 09:37 AM	#13
Benjamin Hill Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Iowa City, Iowa Posts: 670	As of FCP 6.0.2 you can transcode HDV to ProRes during Firewire capture: FinalCutPro6 ReleaseNotes __________________ youtube.com/benhillmedia linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia

March 27th, 2009, 08:08 PM	#2
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	The question is, what is your final output going to? DVD, HD-screencast, film-out, etc. ProRes does offer higher-quality rendering for filters and effects but you'll only notice them on high-bandwidth HD playback. If you're downcoverting to DVD for example you'll never notice a difference and editing in native HDV is just fine.

March 27th, 2009, 09:14 PM	#5
Noah Kadner Better than Halle Berry Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 435	Yeah you could do that very easily with Media Manager- just manage the final HDV edit and recompress to ProRes. Then you can fire over to Color, etc. Noah

March 27th, 2009, 10:04 PM	#6
Luke Tingle Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 88	(directed at original post) I wouldn't think it would matter which way you did it. Either way you're converting to pro res. Personally, I just capture straight from tape to pro res, saves time and the frustration of editing in HDV.

April 1st, 2009, 08:17 AM	#10
Aric Mannion Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 616	I think there is a 3rd option, which is to capture and edit in HDV then change the sequence settings just before you export. HDV takes up very little space, and if I am editing HDV in a pro res timeline I have to render constantly as opposed to editing in it's native format. Maybe you don't have this problem, but for me HDV makes sense until I need to export.

April 4th, 2009, 09:48 AM	#14
Brandon Freeman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 226	I would assume, though, while capturing ProRes, you are basically skipping the step of having HDV files but still are transcoding from the .m2t on the tape to ProRes (hence the delay), correct? With hard drive space a critical issue, I think I would prefer to work with HDV files and then convert to ProRes before final render -- that way I'm only converting the takes needed. Or perhaps, I don't even need to do that? Is rendering out ProRes from the timeline the same even as converting on capture? A lot of this is made interesting by the fact I use a FireStore, so I've got the .m2t on my computer, not the tape. __________________ Canon EOS 7D, Final Cut Studio 2

April 4th, 2009, 11:00 AM	#15
David McGiffert Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Topanga, CA Posts: 139	I have had the best results using a workflow that is editing in HDV and render effects etc. in ProRes, then outputting to a ProRes self-contained QT movie to be taken into Compressor. It makes great DVD's with a little tweaking in Compressor (sharpening a smidge and sometimes dropping the gamma .3 of a point if I want the blacks more prominent). Editing in ProRes, as many have said, eats up a ton of drive space. Sometimes taking the time to do a little testing of different methods is well worth the results.