help w/FCP4 and DVX100 at DVinfo.net

Jake McMurray · September 11th, 2003, 06:41 PM

I'm asking this question for a friend of mine who I'm making a short with. Were using FCP/DVx100 using 24pa. When capturing footage we initially removed the 2-3-3-2 pulldown in the capture settings window. The problem was that when we moved the clip into the timeline it wouldn't play because it needed to rendered. The words "unrendered" would go up in the preview window.

We then captured normally with no pulldown removal and the clip works fine. I thought you were supposed to remove pulldown on capture and insert it again when you render. What is going wrong here?

Would I use something like Cinema tools or is that for 24p not advanced? Is Cinema Tools bundled with FCP4

Jeff Donald · September 11th, 2003, 08:31 PM

It could be capture or sequence settings, or the wrong 24 fps mode. I think most people want 24p (not pa) unless they are definetly going to film. What is the end product of your project, film, DVD, video, broadcast?

Jake McMurray · September 11th, 2003, 09:50 PM

dvd/video. Isn't the 2-3-3-2 removal for 24pa? I didn't see an option for 2-3 pulldown removal for 24p in the Capture Settings window. Then again I didn't use cinema tools. Isn't there some sort of whitepaper or whatever for the dvx100 and fcp4 like there is for Vegas 4.

Ted Springer · September 12th, 2003, 01:40 AM

Jake, you know that item in the bin (I think it's called the bin... don't have FCP in front of me now) that exists with all of your clips that is labeled "Sequence 1"? Right click that and select "settings". Choose 24 fps (do this BEFORE you start working with the timeline). The timeline window will disappear. Double click on the "Sequence 1" thing and it'll pop back up. Now you can drag and drop your 24p footage to the timeline and edit without rendering.

Good luck reintroducing the 3:2 pulldown to your finished product though, as the Mac is incapable. Apparently no one at Apple has yet thought of that. Your ONLY option for smooth playback will be to export it as an M2V file, burn it to DVD and let the player do the pulldown.

Yes, Cinema Tools is bundled with Final Cut Pro 4, but I have yet to have a reason to use it. I launched it and it didn't seem like it did much, but I am not a Cinema Tools expert so don't take my word for it.

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 01:49 AM

Could I re insert it in Vegas? Like somehow print to a dv tape recapture in vegas then reinsert it then. I thought 24p was a supported format in FCP. I mean isn't the pulldown insertion important? Can't cinema tools do this? Is cinema tools purchased seperately?

Basically the situation is that we have shot one scene in 24pa so far. The next scene will be shot Saturday. What would you guys do?

I'm confused.

Ted Springer · September 12th, 2003, 01:54 AM

I posted a similar question in the PC forum on this site, but it hasn't gotten a response yet. A friend of mine says there is some app (forget what it is called) that can take the jitter frames out of 24pa fotoage and then reinsert them after editing is completed. I hope someone in Apple-land thinks of something similar soon.

For now the Windows PC seems more capable than the Mac when it comes to editing 24p footage. You might want to post a few questions in the PC forum to find out for sure.

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 01:54 AM

Well I know that it works in there. But isn't the insertion of the pulldown integral to operating in 24p. I understand what your saying about the dvd player. But we will submit this to the film festival in VHS. Dvd will be for personal use. Do all dvd players have pulldown?

Thank you though for figuring out the whole rendering thing. Is there anyway we could edit it in FCP export it to Vegas and reinsert the pulldown with Vegas 4. I know this sounds impractical...like why don't you just edit it all in Vegas. But Vegas is at my house FCP is at my friends house and most of the editing has to be done there.

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 01:56 AM

do any of the updates resolve this?

Ted Springer · September 12th, 2003, 01:57 AM

What Final Cut Pro will do is simply repeat every third frame depending on how you have things set up in the System Settings of FCP. But no matter what you do, it can't reinsert the jitter frames back in. If you know it works in Vegas, use that. I know it DOESN'T work on the Mac, even with FCP 4.0.2 (the latest version). I must be the first person to edit in 24p on a Mac, otherwise you think they would have solved this long ago. I really hope I am wrong and someone points out a solution, though.

PS - Move your computers for a week :)

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 02:15 AM

Not a bad idea I seriously wish I could. You know we might have to. Problem is this is a family computer, well just my brother and he has lots of homework etc...

Anyways is M2V a compressed format? Is there anyway to get our edited footage out of FCP uncompressed and into my computer uncompressed in an AVI file? Or can you render as .mov put it onto a storage device than put it into my computer and convert .mov to .avi w/no loss. Holy crap we might as well edit it in Vegas. I don't want to insult anybody but the lack of pulldown insertion seems ridicuolous. Doesn't Cinema Tools reinsert pulldown though? I remember hearing that somewhere.

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 02:17 AM

Have you tried Cinema Tools? Does it come with FCP. My friend doesn't seem to know either, well not yet.

Ted Springer · September 12th, 2003, 02:47 AM

I eat my words! I was wrong!!!! I am VERY happy about being wrong!

The solution is to set the timeline to 23.98 frames per second, not 24 like I have been doing. Woo hoo! This will introduce the jitter frames upon playback

Below is an example I just tried. This was originally 24p video and the following link is the jitter frame that is properly introduced when you set things right! Woo hoo!
http://207.168.10.82/oc/jitter.jpg

I am not sure if older versions of FCP let you select 23.98 though. Check and see.

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 03:00 AM

and this solves the problem with pulldown insertion? Does it matter? If your excited I'm excited!

Ted Springer · September 12th, 2003, 03:07 AM

Yup. Just capture as normal, removing the pulldown. Set your timeline to 23.98fps. Edit your heart away. Print to Video and capture with the camera. The file on the tape will have the proper pulldown.

I haven't tried this by exporting a file and saving it to the hard drive to see if it also had the jitter frames, but I am just happy that at least I have this way. I'm sure it would probably work that way as well. I'll have to see sometime.

Jeff Donald · September 12th, 2003, 04:50 AM

You guys need to be very specific about the use of 24p and 24pa. They will have different pulldowns, different fps (as you discovered, Ted) may require reverse telecine (depending on usage etc.) Cinema Tools is in FCP 4, but is only required if you going back to film. Are either of you going back to film?

September 11th, 2003, 06:41 PM	#1
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	help w/FCP4 and DVX100 I'm asking this question for a friend of mine who I'm making a short with. Were using FCP/DVx100 using 24pa. When capturing footage we initially removed the 2-3-3-2 pulldown in the capture settings window. The problem was that when we moved the clip into the timeline it wouldn't play because it needed to rendered. The words "unrendered" would go up in the preview window. We then captured normally with no pulldown removal and the clip works fine. I thought you were supposed to remove pulldown on capture and insert it again when you render. What is going wrong here? Would I use something like Cinema tools or is that for 24p not advanced? Is Cinema Tools bundled with FCP4

September 11th, 2003, 08:31 PM	#2
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	It could be capture or sequence settings, or the wrong 24 fps mode. I think most people want 24p (not pa) unless they are definetly going to film. What is the end product of your project, film, DVD, video, broadcast? __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 12th, 2003, 04:50 AM	#15
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	You guys need to be very specific about the use of 24p and 24pa. They will have different pulldowns, different fps (as you discovered, Ted) may require reverse telecine (depending on usage etc.) Cinema Tools is in FCP 4, but is only required if you going back to film. Are either of you going back to film? __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 11th, 2003, 09:50 PM	#3
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	dvd/video. Isn't the 2-3-3-2 removal for 24pa? I didn't see an option for 2-3 pulldown removal for 24p in the Capture Settings window. Then again I didn't use cinema tools. Isn't there some sort of whitepaper or whatever for the dvx100 and fcp4 like there is for Vegas 4.

September 12th, 2003, 01:40 AM	#4
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	Jake, you know that item in the bin (I think it's called the bin... don't have FCP in front of me now) that exists with all of your clips that is labeled "Sequence 1"? Right click that and select "settings". Choose 24 fps (do this BEFORE you start working with the timeline). The timeline window will disappear. Double click on the "Sequence 1" thing and it'll pop back up. Now you can drag and drop your 24p footage to the timeline and edit without rendering. Good luck reintroducing the 3:2 pulldown to your finished product though, as the Mac is incapable. Apparently no one at Apple has yet thought of that. Your ONLY option for smooth playback will be to export it as an M2V file, burn it to DVD and let the player do the pulldown. Yes, Cinema Tools is bundled with Final Cut Pro 4, but I have yet to have a reason to use it. I launched it and it didn't seem like it did much, but I am not a Cinema Tools expert so don't take my word for it.

September 12th, 2003, 01:49 AM	#5
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	Could I re insert it in Vegas? Like somehow print to a dv tape recapture in vegas then reinsert it then. I thought 24p was a supported format in FCP. I mean isn't the pulldown insertion important? Can't cinema tools do this? Is cinema tools purchased seperately? Basically the situation is that we have shot one scene in 24pa so far. The next scene will be shot Saturday. What would you guys do? I'm confused.

September 12th, 2003, 01:54 AM	#6
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	I posted a similar question in the PC forum on this site, but it hasn't gotten a response yet. A friend of mine says there is some app (forget what it is called) that can take the jitter frames out of 24pa fotoage and then reinsert them after editing is completed. I hope someone in Apple-land thinks of something similar soon. For now the Windows PC seems more capable than the Mac when it comes to editing 24p footage. You might want to post a few questions in the PC forum to find out for sure.

September 12th, 2003, 01:56 AM	#8
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	do any of the updates resolve this?

September 12th, 2003, 01:57 AM	#9
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	What Final Cut Pro will do is simply repeat every third frame depending on how you have things set up in the System Settings of FCP. But no matter what you do, it can't reinsert the jitter frames back in. If you know it works in Vegas, use that. I know it DOESN'T work on the Mac, even with FCP 4.0.2 (the latest version). I must be the first person to edit in 24p on a Mac, otherwise you think they would have solved this long ago. I really hope I am wrong and someone points out a solution, though. PS - Move your computers for a week :)

September 12th, 2003, 02:15 AM	#10
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	Not a bad idea I seriously wish I could. You know we might have to. Problem is this is a family computer, well just my brother and he has lots of homework etc... Anyways is M2V a compressed format? Is there anyway to get our edited footage out of FCP uncompressed and into my computer uncompressed in an AVI file? Or can you render as .mov put it onto a storage device than put it into my computer and convert .mov to .avi w/no loss. Holy crap we might as well edit it in Vegas. I don't want to insult anybody but the lack of pulldown insertion seems ridicuolous. Doesn't Cinema Tools reinsert pulldown though? I remember hearing that somewhere.

September 12th, 2003, 02:17 AM	#11
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	Have you tried Cinema Tools? Does it come with FCP. My friend doesn't seem to know either, well not yet.

September 12th, 2003, 02:47 AM	#12
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	I eat my words! I was wrong!!!! I am VERY happy about being wrong! The solution is to set the timeline to 23.98 frames per second, not 24 like I have been doing. Woo hoo! This will introduce the jitter frames upon playback Below is an example I just tried. This was originally 24p video and the following link is the jitter frame that is properly introduced when you set things right! Woo hoo! http://207.168.10.82/oc/jitter.jpg I am not sure if older versions of FCP let you select 23.98 though. Check and see.

September 12th, 2003, 03:00 AM	#13
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	and this solves the problem with pulldown insertion? Does it matter? If your excited I'm excited!

September 12th, 2003, 03:07 AM	#14
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	Yup. Just capture as normal, removing the pulldown. Set your timeline to 23.98fps. Edit your heart away. Print to Video and capture with the camera. The file on the tape will have the proper pulldown. I haven't tried this by exporting a file and saving it to the hard drive to see if it also had the jitter frames, but I am just happy that at least I have this way. I'm sure it would probably work that way as well. I'll have to see sometime.