help w/FCP4 and DVX100

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 05:09 AM

no I'm not going back to film, well I wasn't in film in the first place.
So 24pa I would want to use the 2-3-3-2 removal correct, which would be under capture settings? Then what about the fps in the timeline like Ted had set? 23.98? Where do you insert the pulldown if thats what you do? Then sequence settings with the same pulldown removal? I'm going to get to spend some more time w/this stuff tommorrow but anything you guys can tell me before I go over there would help a ton (has no internet).

Ted Springer · September 12th, 2003, 05:53 PM

I select the 3:2:3:2 pulldown for the timeline. It just plays back from the timeline that way. But you are actually editing at 24fps. I didn't see any other option in the capture menu other than to remove the jitter frame on 24p/a (2-3-3-2). So shoot in 24p/a and then save the file as a regular 3:2 when you go back to tape. 24p/a is still sort of stuttery upon playback.

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 11:02 PM

but 24p is smoother right. If so I will shoot the rest of the film in 24p instead of advanced. Its only a short scene anyways and this is really our first time.

Jake McMurray · September 13th, 2003, 01:02 AM

oh ok, it just wasn't very clear if the jitter w/24pa was resolved. I got ya on the 24p stuff though.

Jake McMurray · September 13th, 2003, 03:14 AM

Hey ted is your 24pa footage stuttery upon playback in the timeline before or after 2-3 pulldown is inserted?

I read somewhere that 24pa footage with 2-3 pulldown inserted is the same as 24p footage with the pulldown. They are only different before. Like 24p footage is for displaying on NTSC in 30fps, and 24pa is if you want a truer 24p project like for a film transfer, or 24p dvd. BUT if you apply 2-3 pulldown to the 24pa footage then it will play back properly in the NTSC 30fps format.

So if the 24pa footage is jittery before the pulldown then that is normal I am thinking.

Ted Springer · September 13th, 2003, 06:08 PM

I am a bit confused by your post, but I'll type what I know:

24p - record like this in the Panasonic camera and you'll get two jitter frames in a row (proper 3:2) pulldown. This is exactly the way all 24 fps movies are converted for playback on NTSC TVs.

24p Advanced - This has one jitter frame in a row, and therefore it looks a bit more jerky upon playback on an NTCS TV. This frame is removed when converting to a 24p DV file.

When you choose 3:2:3:2 from the timeline in FCP4 (I don't have FCP right in front of me), it plays back from the timeline (and Print to Video) with the 3:2 pulldown automatically inserted, and it looks like a 24fps movie converted to TV. You can also choose the middle option which is actually the "advanced" pulldown, but that looks a little more stuttery and is unacceptable for the final project in my opinion.

Jake McMurray · September 14th, 2003, 02:19 AM

what menu are you inserting the pulldown in. I know where to remove it and I changed the timeline to 23.98 etc works perfect, but when I export to .mov or like print to tape, where do you insert the pulldown, do you insert it before this somewhere.

Well I was told that 24pa with 2-3 pulldown is essentially the same as 24p when played back on NTSC. Like 24pa can be true 24p but when you insert 2-3 pulldown to it its more like 24p normal.

I haven't noticed any real jitter at all as far as I've gone.

Ted Springer · September 14th, 2003, 05:31 PM

You have to use Final Cut Pro 4, and the pulldown is under the playback tab of the System Settings menu. And it just plays back that way, as I think I've said many times before.

Jake McMurray · September 15th, 2003, 01:20 AM

sorry I'm used to Vegas where the pulldown insertion happens upon export not playback. I catch you now. I'll leave you alone.

Jake McMurray · September 15th, 2003, 01:27 AM

On a side note, I tried exporting some 24pa footage onto a dv tape yesterday from FCP4. It said that the computer wasn't fast enough to perform 2-3-2-3 pulldown, I think it was the 2-3 pulldown or whatever. And that lower quality output may result. I went ahead and did it anyway. What does FCP 4 do when this happens? Does it insert pulldown at all? Does it insert pulldown badly or something? Would I be screwed unless I did the final pulldown in Vegas or something?

Jeff Donald · September 15th, 2003, 06:04 AM

Jake, what did it look like when you played it in the timeline, after going back to tape? Jake, your going to have to experiment to discover what works and what doesn't work on your system. You're not going to hurt your system, camera, tape or any other component in your system. When you report what your results are and what different methods and settings you've tried, we'll be better able to make constructive suggestions.

Jake McMurray · September 18th, 2003, 06:53 PM

Well I used FCP's print to video feature to get the 24pa footage to dv tape. It gave me that message about the comp not being fast enough for 2-3 pulldown insertion but I went ahead anyway.

I captured the footage into Vegas and allowed pulldown to be removed. It all looks well and good in Vegas though I'm not sure what I am looking for if its wrong. Its not stuttery or anything seems fine.

One question though. So if FCP did insert 2-3 pulldown than my footage isn't true 24p anymore is it? Can FCP insert advanced pulldown? What I wanted to do is insert 2-3 pulldown for the video tape version than render a second version with the 2-3-3-2 pulldown for a 24pDVD. Is this not possible in FCP? I know I can do this in Vegas but if FCP inserted 2-3 pulldown is it still possible to get back down to true 24p?

I really need to find out what happens when you press "ok" in the print to video feature when it says the comp isn't fast enough for 2-3-2-3 pulldown insertion.

Jeff Donald · September 18th, 2003, 07:11 PM

Try it with a short clip. It may freeze, it may do the pulldown or it may just not perform the action.

Jake McMurray · September 19th, 2003, 01:56 AM

I did it with a short clip. It works seemingly fine. I'm just wondering what it attempted. I mean if it did do a crap job of 2-3 pulldown I guess I wouldn't know because Vegas 4 removes it for me. Right? Oh by the way what is 2:2:2:4 pulldown and how does it factor into all this. It seems to be what I have to have it set to to playback in FCP.

I think I'm good to go though otherwise thanks for the help guys.

Ted Springer · September 19th, 2003, 03:49 AM

2:2:2:4 pulldown just repeats every fourth frame I believe. No jitter frames. You don't want to convert back to advanced pulldown, because advanced pulldown only exists to make the jitter frame easier to remove on capture. It is not designed to be the ideal playback format. Advanced pulldown can look stuttery on pans/whatnot and is not a good choice for a final product. Just because it has the word "advanced" doesn't mean it's better, just easier.

September 15th, 2003, 06:04 AM	#26
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Jake, what did it look like when you played it in the timeline, after going back to tape? Jake, your going to have to experiment to discover what works and what doesn't work on your system. You're not going to hurt your system, camera, tape or any other component in your system. When you report what your results are and what different methods and settings you've tried, we'll be better able to make constructive suggestions. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 18th, 2003, 07:11 PM	#28
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Try it with a short clip. It may freeze, it may do the pulldown or it may just not perform the action. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 12th, 2003, 05:09 AM	#16
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	no I'm not going back to film, well I wasn't in film in the first place. So 24pa I would want to use the 2-3-3-2 removal correct, which would be under capture settings? Then what about the fps in the timeline like Ted had set? 23.98? Where do you insert the pulldown if thats what you do? Then sequence settings with the same pulldown removal? I'm going to get to spend some more time w/this stuff tommorrow but anything you guys can tell me before I go over there would help a ton (has no internet).

September 12th, 2003, 05:53 PM	#17
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	I select the 3:2:3:2 pulldown for the timeline. It just plays back from the timeline that way. But you are actually editing at 24fps. I didn't see any other option in the capture menu other than to remove the jitter frame on 24p/a (2-3-3-2). So shoot in 24p/a and then save the file as a regular 3:2 when you go back to tape. 24p/a is still sort of stuttery upon playback.

September 12th, 2003, 11:02 PM	#18
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	but 24p is smoother right. If so I will shoot the rest of the film in 24p instead of advanced. Its only a short scene anyways and this is really our first time.

September 13th, 2003, 01:02 AM	#19
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	oh ok, it just wasn't very clear if the jitter w/24pa was resolved. I got ya on the 24p stuff though.

September 13th, 2003, 03:14 AM	#20
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	Hey ted is your 24pa footage stuttery upon playback in the timeline before or after 2-3 pulldown is inserted? I read somewhere that 24pa footage with 2-3 pulldown inserted is the same as 24p footage with the pulldown. They are only different before. Like 24p footage is for displaying on NTSC in 30fps, and 24pa is if you want a truer 24p project like for a film transfer, or 24p dvd. BUT if you apply 2-3 pulldown to the 24pa footage then it will play back properly in the NTSC 30fps format. So if the 24pa footage is jittery before the pulldown then that is normal I am thinking.

September 13th, 2003, 06:08 PM	#21
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	I am a bit confused by your post, but I'll type what I know: 24p - record like this in the Panasonic camera and you'll get two jitter frames in a row (proper 3:2) pulldown. This is exactly the way all 24 fps movies are converted for playback on NTSC TVs. 24p Advanced - This has one jitter frame in a row, and therefore it looks a bit more jerky upon playback on an NTCS TV. This frame is removed when converting to a 24p DV file. When you choose 3:2:3:2 from the timeline in FCP4 (I don't have FCP right in front of me), it plays back from the timeline (and Print to Video) with the 3:2 pulldown automatically inserted, and it looks like a 24fps movie converted to TV. You can also choose the middle option which is actually the "advanced" pulldown, but that looks a little more stuttery and is unacceptable for the final project in my opinion.

September 14th, 2003, 02:19 AM	#22
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	what menu are you inserting the pulldown in. I know where to remove it and I changed the timeline to 23.98 etc works perfect, but when I export to .mov or like print to tape, where do you insert the pulldown, do you insert it before this somewhere. Well I was told that 24pa with 2-3 pulldown is essentially the same as 24p when played back on NTSC. Like 24pa can be true 24p but when you insert 2-3 pulldown to it its more like 24p normal. I haven't noticed any real jitter at all as far as I've gone.

September 14th, 2003, 05:31 PM	#23
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	You have to use Final Cut Pro 4, and the pulldown is under the playback tab of the System Settings menu. And it just plays back that way, as I think I've said many times before.

September 15th, 2003, 01:20 AM	#24
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	sorry I'm used to Vegas where the pulldown insertion happens upon export not playback. I catch you now. I'll leave you alone.

September 15th, 2003, 01:27 AM	#25
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	On a side note, I tried exporting some 24pa footage onto a dv tape yesterday from FCP4. It said that the computer wasn't fast enough to perform 2-3-2-3 pulldown, I think it was the 2-3 pulldown or whatever. And that lower quality output may result. I went ahead and did it anyway. What does FCP 4 do when this happens? Does it insert pulldown at all? Does it insert pulldown badly or something? Would I be screwed unless I did the final pulldown in Vegas or something?

September 18th, 2003, 06:53 PM	#27
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	Well I used FCP's print to video feature to get the 24pa footage to dv tape. It gave me that message about the comp not being fast enough for 2-3 pulldown insertion but I went ahead anyway. I captured the footage into Vegas and allowed pulldown to be removed. It all looks well and good in Vegas though I'm not sure what I am looking for if its wrong. Its not stuttery or anything seems fine. One question though. So if FCP did insert 2-3 pulldown than my footage isn't true 24p anymore is it? Can FCP insert advanced pulldown? What I wanted to do is insert 2-3 pulldown for the video tape version than render a second version with the 2-3-3-2 pulldown for a 24pDVD. Is this not possible in FCP? I know I can do this in Vegas but if FCP inserted 2-3 pulldown is it still possible to get back down to true 24p? I really need to find out what happens when you press "ok" in the print to video feature when it says the comp isn't fast enough for 2-3-2-3 pulldown insertion.

September 19th, 2003, 01:56 AM	#29
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	I did it with a short clip. It works seemingly fine. I'm just wondering what it attempted. I mean if it did do a crap job of 2-3 pulldown I guess I wouldn't know because Vegas 4 removes it for me. Right? Oh by the way what is 2:2:2:4 pulldown and how does it factor into all this. It seems to be what I have to have it set to to playback in FCP. I think I'm good to go though otherwise thanks for the help guys.

September 19th, 2003, 03:49 AM	#30
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	2:2:2:4 pulldown just repeats every fourth frame I believe. No jitter frames. You don't want to convert back to advanced pulldown, because advanced pulldown only exists to make the jitter frame easier to remove on capture. It is not designed to be the ideal playback format. Advanced pulldown can look stuttery on pans/whatnot and is not a good choice for a final product. Just because it has the word "advanced" doesn't mean it's better, just easier.