Problem with FCP4 at DVinfo.net

Darrell Hinton · September 9th, 2003, 04:46 PM

Whenever I have just captured a new project in FCP4 and I go to edit, the canvas says "UNRENDERED" and I have to render my project just to see the playback to do editing. I just got a new Apple G4 last week and I thought I had all the necessary requirement to run FCP 4 in real-time. My system specs: PowerMac G4 ; 1.25 GHz ; 512MB RAM ; 1MB L3 Cache ; 80GB Hard Drive ; SuperDrive ; ATI Radeon 9000 Pro. The system came standard with only 256MB RAM and I specifically uprgraded to 512MB because the FCP4 requirements said 512MB required for real-time. Obviously, the more RAM you have the fast it will run but the box does say that real-time will work with 512MB RAM, so I was just wondering if maybe there is something else I am not aware of that could be required. Or if there is something I could change that may affect this. This is my first time working with any version of FC so it very well could be something simple that I do not know about. Thanks for your help and response.

Glenn Chan · September 9th, 2003, 05:11 PM

enable unlimited RT mode???

Darrell Hinton · September 9th, 2003, 06:22 PM

I tried enabling unlimited RT and it still doesn't work, but thanks anyway. Anyone got any other ideas?

Rick Foxx · September 10th, 2003, 09:56 AM

Check your sequence settings to make sure they are the same as the capture settings on your footage. I've had this happen when capturing DV clips, but using the Offline RT setting for the sequence.

Rick

Darrell Hinton · September 10th, 2003, 09:31 PM

No luck with trying that either, but thanks for the info anyway. Anyone else know any possibilities of what the problem could be?

Jeff Donald · September 10th, 2003, 09:46 PM

What camera are you using, or the source of your material? What are the sequence settings and capture settings? What version of FCP 4 are you using? Two updates are out.

Darrell Hinton · September 11th, 2003, 07:09 PM

Jeff, I am shooting with a DVX100 in 24p mode; letterbox. My capture settings are Device Control: Firewire NTSC ; Capture/Input: DVNTSC 48KHz Advanced Pulldown Removal. My sequence settings are Frame Size: 720 x 480 ; Aspect Ratio: NTSC DV (3:2) ; Pixel Aspect Ratio: NTSC - CCIR601/DV ; Field Dominace: Lower (Even) [Could you please explain what field dominance is, as I have no clue] ; Editing Timebase: 29.97 [I can't figure out how to change this to 23.98 or 24, could that have something to do with it? If you could shed some light on this as well it would be much appreciated] ; Compressor: DV/DVCPRO - NTSC. I haven't yet downloaded any of the FCP4 updates, because I do not have an internet connection to my MAC yet (I am having a cable modem hooked up sometime in the next week or so). So I am still using my old Dell computer to connect to the internet for now. Is the problem I am having something that was a bug that was fixed in the updates? I have heard a lot of talk about these updates but I haven't really read exactly what the updates do. If you need to know any more of my settings let me know. Thanks Jeff, or anyone else who can help.

Jeff Donald · September 11th, 2003, 08:07 PM

Did you shoot in 24p or 24pa? I have a feeling your troubles are caused by either the pull down (24p or 24pa) used, or the letterbox setting. I would shoot a small sample with the different settings and see if you can get RT to function.

Have you tried a lower RT resolution? The way RT works is that it renders effects etc. on the fly. I bet RT works on your machine with 60i, SD footage. The combination of 24 (p, or pa) and widescreen and any effects, audio etc. exceed the ability to render on the fly (RT). The change in settings may eliminate some of the renders and your machine will prove fast enough. The updates may help and Panther is sure to help when it is released.

Darrell Hinton · September 11th, 2003, 09:18 PM

Jeff, I recorded in 24/p Adv. My sequence is set on "Safe RT" (Should I use Unlimited? What's the difference?). Playback video quality is set to Low. The Pulldown pattern is set to 2:2:2:4 (Should it be 2:3:3:2?) Yeah, I haven't tried working with any 60i footage. It very well could work in RT. Although, are you saying that my computer may not ever be able to use RT in 24/p? Because I will be shooting in 24/p 95% of the time. If that is indeed what you are saying, do you think that more RAM could help? Also, what is Panther? Thanks for your help.

Jeff Donald · September 12th, 2003, 04:28 AM

OK, in no particular order, Panther is the new OS that will be released this fall. It will help speed things up. More ram always helps. If that were my machine, I'd have no less than 1 gig of ram. Is your project going to film? If not, I'd use 24p. Yes, the correct pulldown for 24pa is 2;3;3;2. Use RT unlimited. I'm saying if you set your sequence to have to render too many options, it won't be fast enough to perform all of them.

Now a few disclaimers, I don't use a DVX100 or 24p/a cameras. I don't use FCP 4. These hints come from friends, clients and reading other forums.

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 01:45 PM

whats the exact frame rate of 24pa?

Darrell Hinton · September 12th, 2003, 04:03 PM

Thanks Jeff I'm going to try changing a few settings around and see what happens. I may also upgrade to 1GB of RAM just to speed things up. No, this footage is not going to film, but I do plan on shooting a short film sometime in the next year which I will be converting to film. So I do need to be able to work with 24p ADV. Thanks again you've been very helpful.

Jeff Donald · September 12th, 2003, 04:44 PM

What I'm reading on other forms and associates have said is 24pa is mostly for film. It can also be used for doing DVD's in progressive with some DVD players adding the frames. I'm being told that 24p is being used most of the time because after the edit it goes back to tape. Tape is always 29.97.

The exact frame rate for 24pa is probably 23.97. It should say in the FCP 4 manual or help section.

Jake McMurray · September 12th, 2003, 11:00 PM

alright well, I guess we will shoot the rest in simply 24p, I don't know before everyone always said to shoot in 24pa because its more efficient or something. Will I have any problems mixing my one scene of 24pa with the rest which will be 24p.

Glenn Chan · September 13th, 2003, 11:55 AM

There's two ways to convert from 24fps to 30fps. One way is 3:2 pulldown and the other is repeating every fourth frame (2:2:2:4 pulldown).

To elaborate...
There are 24 frames in a second. Each frame is composed of 2 fields. We need to make it so that there are 60 fields in a second (30fps).

In one mode your DVX100 records like this:
2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3
That adds up to 60.
Every second frame is stored as 3 fields (one of the duplicated) to record 24fps in a 30fps format (mini-DV).

In the other mode (24p or 24p advanced) it's like this:
2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4
Every fourth frame becomes four fields.
This also adds up to 60 so that there are now 30 frames a second.

I used frame rate approximations because 29.97fps is unwieldy and close enough to 30fps.

September 9th, 2003, 04:46 PM	#1
Darrell Hinton Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 77	Problem with FCP4 Whenever I have just captured a new project in FCP4 and I go to edit, the canvas says "UNRENDERED" and I have to render my project just to see the playback to do editing. I just got a new Apple G4 last week and I thought I had all the necessary requirement to run FCP 4 in real-time. My system specs: PowerMac G4 ; 1.25 GHz ; 512MB RAM ; 1MB L3 Cache ; 80GB Hard Drive ; SuperDrive ; ATI Radeon 9000 Pro. The system came standard with only 256MB RAM and I specifically uprgraded to 512MB because the FCP4 requirements said 512MB required for real-time. Obviously, the more RAM you have the fast it will run but the box does say that real-time will work with 512MB RAM, so I was just wondering if maybe there is something else I am not aware of that could be required. Or if there is something I could change that may affect this. This is my first time working with any version of FC so it very well could be something simple that I do not know about. Thanks for your help and response.

September 10th, 2003, 09:56 AM	#4
Rick Foxx Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tooele, UT Posts: 78	Check your sequence settings to make sure they are the same as the capture settings on your footage. I've had this happen when capturing DV clips, but using the Offline RT setting for the sequence. Rick __________________ There is no problem so large that can't be solved with a suitable application of high explosives.

September 10th, 2003, 09:46 PM	#6
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	What camera are you using, or the source of your material? What are the sequence settings and capture settings? What version of FCP 4 are you using? Two updates are out. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 11th, 2003, 08:07 PM	#8
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Did you shoot in 24p or 24pa? I have a feeling your troubles are caused by either the pull down (24p or 24pa) used, or the letterbox setting. I would shoot a small sample with the different settings and see if you can get RT to function. Have you tried a lower RT resolution? The way RT works is that it renders effects etc. on the fly. I bet RT works on your machine with 60i, SD footage. The combination of 24 (p, or pa) and widescreen and any effects, audio etc. exceed the ability to render on the fly (RT). The change in settings may eliminate some of the renders and your machine will prove fast enough. The updates may help and Panther is sure to help when it is released. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 12th, 2003, 04:28 AM	#10
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	OK, in no particular order, Panther is the new OS that will be released this fall. It will help speed things up. More ram always helps. If that were my machine, I'd have no less than 1 gig of ram. Is your project going to film? If not, I'd use 24p. Yes, the correct pulldown for 24pa is 2;3;3;2. Use RT unlimited. I'm saying if you set your sequence to have to render too many options, it won't be fast enough to perform all of them. Now a few disclaimers, I don't use a DVX100 or 24p/a cameras. I don't use FCP 4. These hints come from friends, clients and reading other forums. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 9th, 2003, 05:11 PM	#2
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	enable unlimited RT mode???

September 9th, 2003, 06:22 PM	#3
Darrell Hinton Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 77	I tried enabling unlimited RT and it still doesn't work, but thanks anyway. Anyone got any other ideas?

September 10th, 2003, 09:31 PM	#5
Darrell Hinton Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 77	No luck with trying that either, but thanks for the info anyway. Anyone else know any possibilities of what the problem could be?

September 11th, 2003, 07:09 PM	#7
Darrell Hinton Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 77	Jeff, I am shooting with a DVX100 in 24p mode; letterbox. My capture settings are Device Control: Firewire NTSC ; Capture/Input: DVNTSC 48KHz Advanced Pulldown Removal. My sequence settings are Frame Size: 720 x 480 ; Aspect Ratio: NTSC DV (3:2) ; Pixel Aspect Ratio: NTSC - CCIR601/DV ; Field Dominace: Lower (Even) [Could you please explain what field dominance is, as I have no clue] ; Editing Timebase: 29.97 [I can't figure out how to change this to 23.98 or 24, could that have something to do with it? If you could shed some light on this as well it would be much appreciated] ; Compressor: DV/DVCPRO - NTSC. I haven't yet downloaded any of the FCP4 updates, because I do not have an internet connection to my MAC yet (I am having a cable modem hooked up sometime in the next week or so). So I am still using my old Dell computer to connect to the internet for now. Is the problem I am having something that was a bug that was fixed in the updates? I have heard a lot of talk about these updates but I haven't really read exactly what the updates do. If you need to know any more of my settings let me know. Thanks Jeff, or anyone else who can help.

September 11th, 2003, 09:18 PM	#9
Darrell Hinton Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 77	Jeff, I recorded in 24/p Adv. My sequence is set on "Safe RT" (Should I use Unlimited? What's the difference?). Playback video quality is set to Low. The Pulldown pattern is set to 2:2:2:4 (Should it be 2:3:3:2?) Yeah, I haven't tried working with any 60i footage. It very well could work in RT. Although, are you saying that my computer may not ever be able to use RT in 24/p? Because I will be shooting in 24/p 95% of the time. If that is indeed what you are saying, do you think that more RAM could help? Also, what is Panther? Thanks for your help.

September 12th, 2003, 01:45 PM	#11
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	whats the exact frame rate of 24pa?

September 12th, 2003, 04:03 PM	#12
Darrell Hinton Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 77	Thanks Jeff I'm going to try changing a few settings around and see what happens. I may also upgrade to 1GB of RAM just to speed things up. No, this footage is not going to film, but I do plan on shooting a short film sometime in the next year which I will be converting to film. So I do need to be able to work with 24p ADV. Thanks again you've been very helpful.

September 12th, 2003, 04:44 PM	#13
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	What I'm reading on other forms and associates have said is 24pa is mostly for film. It can also be used for doing DVD's in progressive with some DVD players adding the frames. I'm being told that 24p is being used most of the time because after the edit it goes back to tape. Tape is always 29.97. The exact frame rate for 24pa is probably 23.97. It should say in the FCP 4 manual or help section. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 12th, 2003, 11:00 PM	#14
Jake McMurray Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bellingham Washington Posts: 102	alright well, I guess we will shoot the rest in simply 24p, I don't know before everyone always said to shoot in 24pa because its more efficient or something. Will I have any problems mixing my one scene of 24pa with the rest which will be 24p.

September 13th, 2003, 11:55 AM	#15
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	There's two ways to convert from 24fps to 30fps. One way is 3:2 pulldown and the other is repeating every fourth frame (2:2:2:4 pulldown). To elaborate... There are 24 frames in a second. Each frame is composed of 2 fields. We need to make it so that there are 60 fields in a second (30fps). In one mode your DVX100 records like this: 2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3:2:3 That adds up to 60. Every second frame is stored as 3 fields (one of the duplicated) to record 24fps in a 30fps format (mini-DV). In the other mode (24p or 24p advanced) it's like this: 2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4:2:2:2:4 Every fourth frame becomes four fields. This also adds up to 60 so that there are now 30 frames a second. I used frame rate approximations because 29.97fps is unwieldy and close enough to 30fps.