Best HDV workflow.

Carlos San Roman · March 15th, 2010, 11:29 PM

William,

OK, let me make sure I got you straight.

For reference, I shoot with a JVC HD200 mostly in 720p30, but at times 720p24 and 720p60

So if I capture in HDV - edit in the "HDV/ProRes" using ProRes only for render - I should export the sequence using QT conversion and select ProRes for the compression type. Then use that file for compressor.

If I use the "Pure ProRes" capture, edit, and render - I could send that sequence straight to compressor.

If I capture in HDV - Edit in a ProRes sequence and render in ProRes - Could that go straight to compressor or should one use QT conversion?

And if I may (bit off the subject) I am getting more and more requests for the web. Usually 3 to 5 minute clips (i.e. highlights of a ground breaking or fundraiser) that the client wants to put on their website. What would you recommend as the best workflow to get it into compressor and what setting in compressor (from the web folder I'm guessing?) would you use? Or is there a better way to deliver the file to the client?

Thanks again,

Carlos

William Hohauser · March 16th, 2010, 08:22 AM

You've got it right. And HDV files in a ProRes sequence should be rendered first and then you should make a QuickTime reference file and send that to Compressor.

Web files are a different story. Find out what your client needs, QuickTime, Windows Media, Flash and then work from there. Compressor gives you a set of h.264 presets in the Web/QuickTime 7 folder that cover a lot of ground and you can adjust them to your specs. Windows Media and Flash require additional software, DV Kitchen is good for this at a reasonable price. Some clients have a web person who can format the files to their standard so all you have to give them is a quality file that they can use.

Jase Tanner · March 16th, 2010, 10:45 AM

I've never paid much attention to Pro res up until now as I've only recently jumped from FCP 5 to 7. I've got an all but completed project that I captured in FCP 5 using AIC, just doing some final tweaks. Made the jump to FCP7/SL without any catastrophes. I'm still using the AIC sequence/render setting I started with and have made a couple of SD DVDs using the QT conversion to Prores to do that. For the most part I'm happy but there are a couple of shots that could be better, shots where there was some heavy colour correction, (shot under an orange tent and no time to manual white balance.)

I'm going to change my render settings today and see if that helps but I've also been thinking about recapturing the whole thing as either HDV or Prores. Obviously my concern is that my current workflow means one extra recompression from HDV to AIC before the one to Prores for the SD DVD. How beneficial would avoiding that first recompression be?

I'm assuming that if I keep my current workflow and only change render setting to Prores all I have to do is delete the original render files first or is there more to it than that?

Thanks

William Hohauser · March 16th, 2010, 03:01 PM

AIC is a frame-based codec one generation before ProRes. You don't need to convert it to ProRes before making a DVD. ProRes is a better codec all around and has gained widespread acceptance where AIC never did. However AIC is not bad just not as good. You might want to stay in AIC unless recapturing the footage as ProRes is easy enough. I'm not sure if ProRes is available as a render option in an AIC sequence.

Jase Tanner · March 22nd, 2010, 12:42 AM

Thanks for that William. For reasons that are beyond me, compressor 3.5.1 on 10.6.1 hated AIC. After 2 attempts where the time remaining indicator went up to 15 hrs plus I gave up and went back to the prores conversion which worked just fine. I've since run Disk Utility which gave me the following.

Warning: SUID file "System/Library/CoreServices/RemoteManagement/ARDAgent.app/Contents/MacOS/ARDAgent" has been modified and will not be repaired.

Warning: SUID file "System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/DesktopServicesPriv.framework/Versions/A/Resources/Locum" has been modified and will not be repaired.

Fixing permissions using Onyx gave me the same result. Googling these two warnings didn't help. The best I got was that some people got the same when installing 10.5 I've been on 10.6 for months now. According to the posts I found, some people had contacted Apple support who said it wasn't anything to be worried about. Thanks Apple.

At the same time as Compressor went on holiday with the AIC project, FCP has been dropping frames like crazy on the same, but not on an SD project on a different drive. Smaller files of course might explain that. But then it didn't have an issue with the Prores file. I haven't taken the issue any further just yet but I do have a SL compatible version of Disk Warrior on the way and plan on defragging my boot drive as well.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

William Hohauser · March 22nd, 2010, 08:29 AM

Are your playing HD video files off the system drive? This may be the problem and you are suffering from extreme file fragmentation. OS 10 is a UNIX based operating system which makes and deletes a lot of tiny files during it's normal hour to hour operations. If you are using a laptop the combination of a fragmented drive and the slower drive speed of laptop drives will cause this dropped frame problem. Other uses of the computer, graphics/music/ document work will never show a problem as they don't require the data bandwidth requirements of HD video.

Transfer the video files to an external drive and see if the problem remains. You might also need to reinstall your system OS. Do a search here as Robert Lane has posted a good method to "self-heal" 10.6.

Jase Tanner · March 22nd, 2010, 09:52 AM

I'm on a MBP and all media is on external drives. The AIC project on a G Raid which never had trouble until now.

Anyway, I found Robert's self healing post so will give that a shot.

William Hohauser · March 22nd, 2010, 03:25 PM

G-Raids are good but I've heard about breakdowns with them and a client of mine had one that completely bit the dust while capturing a live shoot thru FCP. I was there for that. The company replaced it.

Jase Tanner · March 22nd, 2010, 03:58 PM

Good to know that but still don't think that explains why Compressor handled Prores easily but not AIC, given they were both on the G Raid. Hope to get to this tomorrow and will report back once I do.

March 16th, 2010, 08:22 AM	#62
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	You've got it right. And HDV files in a ProRes sequence should be rendered first and then you should make a QuickTime reference file and send that to Compressor. Web files are a different story. Find out what your client needs, QuickTime, Windows Media, Flash and then work from there. Compressor gives you a set of h.264 presets in the Web/QuickTime 7 folder that cover a lot of ground and you can adjust them to your specs. Windows Media and Flash require additional software, DV Kitchen is good for this at a reasonable price. Some clients have a web person who can format the files to their standard so all you have to give them is a quality file that they can use. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

March 16th, 2010, 10:45 AM	#63
Jase Tanner Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 346	Where does AIC fit into this picture? I've never paid much attention to Pro res up until now as I've only recently jumped from FCP 5 to 7. I've got an all but completed project that I captured in FCP 5 using AIC, just doing some final tweaks. Made the jump to FCP7/SL without any catastrophes. I'm still using the AIC sequence/render setting I started with and have made a couple of SD DVDs using the QT conversion to Prores to do that. For the most part I'm happy but there are a couple of shots that could be better, shots where there was some heavy colour correction, (shot under an orange tent and no time to manual white balance.) I'm going to change my render settings today and see if that helps but I've also been thinking about recapturing the whole thing as either HDV or Prores. Obviously my concern is that my current workflow means one extra recompression from HDV to AIC before the one to Prores for the SD DVD. How beneficial would avoiding that first recompression be? I'm assuming that if I keep my current workflow and only change render setting to Prores all I have to do is delete the original render files first or is there more to it than that? Thanks

March 16th, 2010, 03:01 PM	#64
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	AIC is a frame-based codec one generation before ProRes. You don't need to convert it to ProRes before making a DVD. ProRes is a better codec all around and has gained widespread acceptance where AIC never did. However AIC is not bad just not as good. You might want to stay in AIC unless recapturing the footage as ProRes is easy enough. I'm not sure if ProRes is available as a render option in an AIC sequence. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

March 22nd, 2010, 08:29 AM	#66
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Are your playing HD video files off the system drive? This may be the problem and you are suffering from extreme file fragmentation. OS 10 is a UNIX based operating system which makes and deletes a lot of tiny files during it's normal hour to hour operations. If you are using a laptop the combination of a fragmented drive and the slower drive speed of laptop drives will cause this dropped frame problem. Other uses of the computer, graphics/music/ document work will never show a problem as they don't require the data bandwidth requirements of HD video. Transfer the video files to an external drive and see if the problem remains. You might also need to reinstall your system OS. Do a search here as Robert Lane has posted a good method to "self-heal" 10.6. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

March 22nd, 2010, 03:25 PM	#68
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	G-Raids are good but I've heard about breakdowns with them and a client of mine had one that completely bit the dust while capturing a live shoot thru FCP. I was there for that. The company replaced it. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

March 15th, 2010, 11:29 PM	#61
Carlos San Roman Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Orange, CA Posts: 46	William, OK, let me make sure I got you straight. For reference, I shoot with a JVC HD200 mostly in 720p30, but at times 720p24 and 720p60 So if I capture in HDV - edit in the "HDV/ProRes" using ProRes only for render - I should export the sequence using QT conversion and select ProRes for the compression type. Then use that file for compressor. If I use the "Pure ProRes" capture, edit, and render - I could send that sequence straight to compressor. If I capture in HDV - Edit in a ProRes sequence and render in ProRes - Could that go straight to compressor or should one use QT conversion? And if I may (bit off the subject) I am getting more and more requests for the web. Usually 3 to 5 minute clips (i.e. highlights of a ground breaking or fundraiser) that the client wants to put on their website. What would you recommend as the best workflow to get it into compressor and what setting in compressor (from the web folder I'm guessing?) would you use? Or is there a better way to deliver the file to the client? Thanks again, Carlos

March 22nd, 2010, 12:42 AM	#65
Jase Tanner Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 346	Thanks for that William. For reasons that are beyond me, compressor 3.5.1 on 10.6.1 hated AIC. After 2 attempts where the time remaining indicator went up to 15 hrs plus I gave up and went back to the prores conversion which worked just fine. I've since run Disk Utility which gave me the following. Warning: SUID file "System/Library/CoreServices/RemoteManagement/ARDAgent.app/Contents/MacOS/ARDAgent" has been modified and will not be repaired. Warning: SUID file "System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/DesktopServicesPriv.framework/Versions/A/Resources/Locum" has been modified and will not be repaired. Fixing permissions using Onyx gave me the same result. Googling these two warnings didn't help. The best I got was that some people got the same when installing 10.5 I've been on 10.6 for months now. According to the posts I found, some people had contacted Apple support who said it wasn't anything to be worried about. Thanks Apple. At the same time as Compressor went on holiday with the AIC project, FCP has been dropping frames like crazy on the same, but not on an SD project on a different drive. Smaller files of course might explain that. But then it didn't have an issue with the Prores file. I haven't taken the issue any further just yet but I do have a SL compatible version of Disk Warrior on the way and plan on defragging my boot drive as well. Any thoughts? Thanks.

March 22nd, 2010, 09:52 AM	#67
Jase Tanner Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 346	I'm on a MBP and all media is on external drives. The AIC project on a G Raid which never had trouble until now. Anyway, I found Robert's self healing post so will give that a shot.

March 22nd, 2010, 03:58 PM	#69
Jase Tanner Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 346	Good to know that but still don't think that explains why Compressor handled Prores easily but not AIC, given they were both on the G Raid. Hope to get to this tomorrow and will report back once I do.