Interesting Observation on "Younger" FCP Editors

William Hohauser · March 26th, 2008, 03:20 PM

This made me think about how long ago I started editing.... 28 years! And I'm not that old. Reason, I quit college once I realized that I wasn't learning anything from the "production professors". I got a job in a production house and was editing within a year. Simple linear stuff, but I was editing. Now I'm on FCP and very happy to be here. Every improvement is very welcome.

However, there's much less editing work now. My city is filled with film school graduates and their $5000 - $8000 graduation present FCP set-ups all over the place. I've seen companies seeking editors offer $25 per hour for an editor with equipment! Fortunately there are enough people who realize that 4 hours with an experienced editor at a decent rate is better than 20 hours with a new editor at a cheap rate.

Many productions have a style rule book that all editors must adhere to. You can see this on MTV, Discovery Channel and many other cable networks. Flash here, zip wipe edit there, zoom in here, overexpose there. Whatever you think of these styles, it provides a foundation for new editors and keeps the shows within budget so the executives can keep their jobs and ridiculously high salaries.

The whole young versus old question here is good. One problem in video and film education that you don't see in in sciences, for example, a noted scientist frequently spends part of their time teaching and frequently uses their students in research projects. Here in production land, if you are a good editor/camera/audio you are almost never found in a teaching position. The only people who can benefit from your experience are those who chance to work under you. I hate to say it as I have taught a number of classes in editing, storyboard techniques and control room, if you are teaching production it's assumed you are probably not very good in production. How many noted editors regularly teach at universities? Perhaps I'm wrong.

Richard Alvarez · March 26th, 2008, 03:52 PM

Well, I thought it was for a different thread, but I'll go ahead and address it here.

Forums and virtual communities are wonderful! I mean, I used to WRITE LETTERS to people to ask them questions - and wait a week to get a response - 'back in my day'. (Yeah, and I hiked uphill both ways in the snow, too...)

I love forums, this is a great place to get tips, and network, find jobs (yes, I've gotten gainful employment off this very board).

But it's not a substitute for personal interaction - it's a supplement.

I'm kind of in a unique position... regarding 'real world' practices and school stuff. I started in RTV at the University of Houston back in '74 WHILE I was working full time at KHTV Ch39, the largest independent station in the nation. Full time school and full time work - something had to give. The young upstart arrogant me, quickly realized that I was learning more in a week on the job, than I was learning in a semester at school. So I dropped the schooling after two years.

Flash forward twenty some odd years of working professionally in Radio,Television and Film.

I'm living in NorCal, and have the time and money - TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL. So I do that. Getting my 'film degree' in 2001. What I enjoyed most about going back to school, was working with 20 year olds in film classes, showing them things I learned 'the hard way'. It was also a 're-entry' for me, learning NLE for the first time. (Premiere) and buying my first Avid system... pouring myself in the new 'digital age'. (Don't ask me about college algebra - I passed it didn't I?)

Now, aside from all the other free-lancing I do,(alone in my garage...) I work for a local Cable Company, directing and shooting everything from Council meetings, to College Football and Basketball, to Concerts and kiddie shows. Solo and five camera shoots - it's a real small company, and everyone wears three hats. One of the things I enjoy most, is working with some of the young folks who have just come out of school... and start their careers there.

So it's possible to go find a situation where you can intern, or volunteer - and work in a collaborative environment. It's good to rub elbows with other folks in the business. Aside from networking - its just plain fun socializing.

So beyond the forums - which are great resources - one must make an effort to reach out - young and old - to connect and share.

Mike Barber · March 27th, 2008, 03:42 AM

Are there any good books anyone can recommend? You can't learn everything from a classroom or a book, especially when it comes to the creative/artistic elements of editing. But as far as some of the more technical aspects go, I know I could stand to benefit from reading more about workflows and whatever else I am missing from my personal knowledge-base.

For example, I have never worked with an EDL and would love to learn what it's for and how to really use one properly.

If you were going to teach a university-level course in editing, what would you have as a reading list?

Josh Bass · March 27th, 2008, 05:26 AM

Just wanted to pop back in and address a response to my post in here:

I meant NOT using the scopes is pretty inexcusable, since they're right there in FCP (and Vegas, for that matter).

I've certainly done that before, too, though. Not check the levels with scopes and whatnot. Depends on who my client is. I have not, to this point, done anything for broadcast, so it's either for a very small group of people to watch, or for the web or something. Sometimes, it really just doesn't matter for the work I do. Other times, it does, and I take the time to check and tweak.

David Parks · March 27th, 2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Barber

Are there any good books anyone can recommend? You can't learn everything from a classroom or a book, especially when it comes to the creative/artistic elements of editing. But as far as some of the more technical aspects go, I know I could stand to benefit from reading more about workflows and whatever else I am missing from my personal knowledge-base.

For example, I have never worked with an EDL and would love to learn what it's for and how to really use one properly.

If you were going to teach a university-level course in editing, what would you have as a reading list?

Tom Wolsky's Book...FCP Workshop

http://www.amazon.com/Final-Cut-Pro-.../dp/1578200903

http://library.creativecow.net/artic..._wrkshp_review.
php

Review of Tom's book...

I think it is a good book from the standpoint of introducing you to a more professional approach to editing. It helped me with my Avid background.

If you're on Avid..any book by Steve Bayes.

Anything by this guy...

http://www.newenglandfilm.com/news/a...ber/editor.htm

There are podcasts, articles, from Tom Ohanion. He is essentially the developer of the Avid One in 1989. And he is an academy award winning editor. So matter what you edit on, listen to this guy. Tom basically translated his editing skills into the concept of nonlinear editing as we know it today.

He was and is a true pioneer.

Cheers.

Richard Alvarez · March 27th, 2008, 09:17 AM

I'm a fan of books that are compendiums of different voices. I just finished reading "Screenwriters on Screenwriting" for instance. A great book of interviews with a dozen screenwriters, each discussing how THEY approach the craft. It's interesting to compare and contrast individual approaches. Its also gratifying to hear someone say "I can't work that way, I have to work THIS way..." and it's exactly how I work.

As far as editing goes, I reccomend "TRANSITIONS" its a series of interviews with various editors about how THEY approach the craft. Some are doc editors, some are Music Video editors, some are feature editors - it's very illuminating to hear how they got started, what they like, what they have trouble with, who THEY admire.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1903450535/

It's also hard to read. Seriously. The book itself is presented in this catchy 'graphic' form, with colored text on colored graphic backgrounds that makes it hard to read... I HATE that. But the actual content is invaluable.

Check out the other recomendations in the "READ ABOUT IT" sub forum.

Gabe Strong · March 27th, 2008, 11:26 PM

Hmmm....lots of interesting points. Tune in now for another point of view...

I used to work for TV stations....started when I was in TV school working for the PBS station, continued as a news photographer/editor, and producer/director. Finally got out of TV after growing sick of low pay/long hours that the local stations pay and started my own business. I live in a small isolated town in Alaska, so there are not many other video professionals to interact with and learn from. So I fit the 'FCP bedroom editors' almost to a T as I have a FCP edit suite in my house, and run a one man production company. Some markets just don't support any more than that....there are others who have tried, with more and better gear, and the accompanying higher overhead, and they have been unable to make a go of it as their prices have been higher than anyone has been willing to pay. But on the other hand, all this 'I can do it myself in my FCP suite' stuff irritates me too as many people ask me why I can't do a job fo $50 because their neighbor's son has a 'camcorder and computer and he'll do it for that!'
So I can see both viewpoints, and I am probably being kind of hypocritical thinking it's ok for me to do it but that because of my background I am a 'professional' and the other people who try it here are 'hobbyists'.....although it is true I do it as my full time job, and not 'on the side' like almost everyone else around here....and that helps me as I am looked at as 'a true professional' by local businesses as they can get me to work during regular business hours not just on weekends and nights.

Anyways, what I guess I am saying, is that we should all strive to be as professional as we can in all our endeavors. I only have a one man production company. I don't interact with broadcast houses, I deliver a complete DVD to my clients and need an entire 'end to end' solution in my home studio.....as long as it looks good they are happy. I have been in business for 7 years now and have had ZERO customer complaints....I get unsolicited compliments from about 85% of my customers....and when I ask I have always been told they are 'very happy' with my work. And that's what's important. But I do my best treat everything as if it is going to be broadcast (and my local TV spots ARE broadcast). I have never had anything sent back to me because of 'illegal' levels, but local TV stations being what they are (and eager for the ad revenue from airtime buys) I don't know if they WOULD send it back to me even if it was 'out of spec'. I mean the stuff their local production company for the station produces looks way 'overwhite' to me a lot of the time and they air it anyways. I try and have a good attitude and learn from every TV/video/film professional I come into contact with, and usually do learn things from any of them I get the chance to talk to....there are a lot o really skilled people out there. BUT that being said, there are some of us that don't really NEED to use EDL's and offline/online workflow and many other things, because we just aren't given the budget to do these things. I get budgets of $1000-$2000 for a project usually.....maybe a little more on the top end. So if that's what I have to work with, I strive to give them the best value they will get for that budget,....and it seems to work.

Frank Simpson · March 28th, 2008, 11:05 AM

Such an interesting discussion! I think the kernel of the entire issue was touched on by Richard Alvarez earlier when he mentioned the INTEGRATION aspect of it.

I don't think anyone would or should care about scopes, EDLs, etc. for a person's workflow that doesn't ever cross someone else's work station. I think the central complaint (which, by the way has nothing at all to do with actual age) is a person who presents himself as an industry professional without the requisite skill and knowledge of how to interact within industry standards.

In my "day job" industry of graphic design, I used to run the prepress department for a small chain of print shops. I often received files from clients for print, and precious few of them were "print ready". I can tell you there's a world of difference between looking good on the screen and being ready to put ink to paper!

The same can be true of video editors. "It looks great on my screen" quite simply does not cut it when it has to enter a professional work stream. There's nothing wrong with not knowing the details, as long as there is a willingness to learn and implement them as you progress. What is wrong is to take an "I-don't-care" attitude about submitting sub-par work to others.

I believe the frustration with "young editors" is when they present their work to a post-house as a professional when it's clear that they don't have the professional knowledge. Now, if they're never going to have to "interface" their work with other people the issue becomes moot.

The best advice given in the blog is to find out how the people you're working with want to receive materials. When you submit the way they want, you get the best service!

March 26th, 2008, 03:20 PM	#31
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	This made me think about how long ago I started editing.... 28 years! And I'm not that old. Reason, I quit college once I realized that I wasn't learning anything from the "production professors". I got a job in a production house and was editing within a year. Simple linear stuff, but I was editing. Now I'm on FCP and very happy to be here. Every improvement is very welcome. However, there's much less editing work now. My city is filled with film school graduates and their $5000 - $8000 graduation present FCP set-ups all over the place. I've seen companies seeking editors offer $25 per hour for an editor with equipment! Fortunately there are enough people who realize that 4 hours with an experienced editor at a decent rate is better than 20 hours with a new editor at a cheap rate. Many productions have a style rule book that all editors must adhere to. You can see this on MTV, Discovery Channel and many other cable networks. Flash here, zip wipe edit there, zoom in here, overexpose there. Whatever you think of these styles, it provides a foundation for new editors and keeps the shows within budget so the executives can keep their jobs and ridiculously high salaries. The whole young versus old question here is good. One problem in video and film education that you don't see in in sciences, for example, a noted scientist frequently spends part of their time teaching and frequently uses their students in research projects. Here in production land, if you are a good editor/camera/audio you are almost never found in a teaching position. The only people who can benefit from your experience are those who chance to work under you. I hate to say it as I have taught a number of classes in editing, storyboard techniques and control room, if you are teaching production it's assumed you are probably not very good in production. How many noted editors regularly teach at universities? Perhaps I'm wrong. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

March 27th, 2008, 03:42 AM	#33
Mike Barber Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto ON Canada Posts: 731	Any recommended reading? Are there any good books anyone can recommend? You can't learn everything from a classroom or a book, especially when it comes to the creative/artistic elements of editing. But as far as some of the more technical aspects go, I know I could stand to benefit from reading more about workflows and whatever else I am missing from my personal knowledge-base. For example, I have never worked with an EDL and would love to learn what it's for and how to really use one properly. If you were going to teach a university-level course in editing, what would you have as a reading list? __________________ Mike Barber "I'm laughing to stop myself from screaming."

March 27th, 2008, 05:26 AM	#34
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Just wanted to pop back in and address a response to my post in here: I meant NOT using the scopes is pretty inexcusable, since they're right there in FCP (and Vegas, for that matter). I've certainly done that before, too, though. Not check the levels with scopes and whatnot. Depends on who my client is. I have not, to this point, done anything for broadcast, so it's either for a very small group of people to watch, or for the web or something. Sometimes, it really just doesn't matter for the work I do. Other times, it does, and I take the time to check and tweak. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

March 26th, 2008, 03:52 PM	#32
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Well, I thought it was for a different thread, but I'll go ahead and address it here. Forums and virtual communities are wonderful! I mean, I used to WRITE LETTERS to people to ask them questions - and wait a week to get a response - 'back in my day'. (Yeah, and I hiked uphill both ways in the snow, too...) I love forums, this is a great place to get tips, and network, find jobs (yes, I've gotten gainful employment off this very board). But it's not a substitute for personal interaction - it's a supplement. I'm kind of in a unique position... regarding 'real world' practices and school stuff. I started in RTV at the University of Houston back in '74 WHILE I was working full time at KHTV Ch39, the largest independent station in the nation. Full time school and full time work - something had to give. The young upstart arrogant me, quickly realized that I was learning more in a week on the job, than I was learning in a semester at school. So I dropped the schooling after two years. Flash forward twenty some odd years of working professionally in Radio,Television and Film. I'm living in NorCal, and have the time and money - TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL. So I do that. Getting my 'film degree' in 2001. What I enjoyed most about going back to school, was working with 20 year olds in film classes, showing them things I learned 'the hard way'. It was also a 're-entry' for me, learning NLE for the first time. (Premiere) and buying my first Avid system... pouring myself in the new 'digital age'. (Don't ask me about college algebra - I passed it didn't I?) Now, aside from all the other free-lancing I do,(alone in my garage...) I work for a local Cable Company, directing and shooting everything from Council meetings, to College Football and Basketball, to Concerts and kiddie shows. Solo and five camera shoots - it's a real small company, and everyone wears three hats. One of the things I enjoy most, is working with some of the young folks who have just come out of school... and start their careers there. So it's possible to go find a situation where you can intern, or volunteer - and work in a collaborative environment. It's good to rub elbows with other folks in the business. Aside from networking - its just plain fun socializing. So beyond the forums - which are great resources - one must make an effort to reach out - young and old - to connect and share.

March 27th, 2008, 09:17 AM	#36
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I'm a fan of books that are compendiums of different voices. I just finished reading "Screenwriters on Screenwriting" for instance. A great book of interviews with a dozen screenwriters, each discussing how THEY approach the craft. It's interesting to compare and contrast individual approaches. Its also gratifying to hear someone say "I can't work that way, I have to work THIS way..." and it's exactly how I work. As far as editing goes, I reccomend "TRANSITIONS" its a series of interviews with various editors about how THEY approach the craft. Some are doc editors, some are Music Video editors, some are feature editors - it's very illuminating to hear how they got started, what they like, what they have trouble with, who THEY admire. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1903450535/ It's also hard to read. Seriously. The book itself is presented in this catchy 'graphic' form, with colored text on colored graphic backgrounds that makes it hard to read... I HATE that. But the actual content is invaluable. Check out the other recomendations in the "READ ABOUT IT" sub forum.

March 27th, 2008, 11:26 PM	#37
Gabe Strong Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 814	Hmmm....lots of interesting points. Tune in now for another point of view... I used to work for TV stations....started when I was in TV school working for the PBS station, continued as a news photographer/editor, and producer/director. Finally got out of TV after growing sick of low pay/long hours that the local stations pay and started my own business. I live in a small isolated town in Alaska, so there are not many other video professionals to interact with and learn from. So I fit the 'FCP bedroom editors' almost to a T as I have a FCP edit suite in my house, and run a one man production company. Some markets just don't support any more than that....there are others who have tried, with more and better gear, and the accompanying higher overhead, and they have been unable to make a go of it as their prices have been higher than anyone has been willing to pay. But on the other hand, all this 'I can do it myself in my FCP suite' stuff irritates me too as many people ask me why I can't do a job fo $50 because their neighbor's son has a 'camcorder and computer and he'll do it for that!' So I can see both viewpoints, and I am probably being kind of hypocritical thinking it's ok for me to do it but that because of my background I am a 'professional' and the other people who try it here are 'hobbyists'.....although it is true I do it as my full time job, and not 'on the side' like almost everyone else around here....and that helps me as I am looked at as 'a true professional' by local businesses as they can get me to work during regular business hours not just on weekends and nights. Anyways, what I guess I am saying, is that we should all strive to be as professional as we can in all our endeavors. I only have a one man production company. I don't interact with broadcast houses, I deliver a complete DVD to my clients and need an entire 'end to end' solution in my home studio.....as long as it looks good they are happy. I have been in business for 7 years now and have had ZERO customer complaints....I get unsolicited compliments from about 85% of my customers....and when I ask I have always been told they are 'very happy' with my work. And that's what's important. But I do my best treat everything as if it is going to be broadcast (and my local TV spots ARE broadcast). I have never had anything sent back to me because of 'illegal' levels, but local TV stations being what they are (and eager for the ad revenue from airtime buys) I don't know if they WOULD send it back to me even if it was 'out of spec'. I mean the stuff their local production company for the station produces looks way 'overwhite' to me a lot of the time and they air it anyways. I try and have a good attitude and learn from every TV/video/film professional I come into contact with, and usually do learn things from any of them I get the chance to talk to....there are a lot o really skilled people out there. BUT that being said, there are some of us that don't really NEED to use EDL's and offline/online workflow and many other things, because we just aren't given the budget to do these things. I get budgets of $1000-$2000 for a project usually.....maybe a little more on the top end. So if that's what I have to work with, I strive to give them the best value they will get for that budget,....and it seems to work.

March 28th, 2008, 11:05 AM	#38
Frank Simpson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bozeman, MT Posts: 217	Such an interesting discussion! I think the kernel of the entire issue was touched on by Richard Alvarez earlier when he mentioned the INTEGRATION aspect of it. I don't think anyone would or should care about scopes, EDLs, etc. for a person's workflow that doesn't ever cross someone else's work station. I think the central complaint (which, by the way has nothing at all to do with actual age) is a person who presents himself as an industry professional without the requisite skill and knowledge of how to interact within industry standards. In my "day job" industry of graphic design, I used to run the prepress department for a small chain of print shops. I often received files from clients for print, and precious few of them were "print ready". I can tell you there's a world of difference between looking good on the screen and being ready to put ink to paper! The same can be true of video editors. "It looks great on my screen" quite simply does not cut it when it has to enter a professional work stream. There's nothing wrong with not knowing the details, as long as there is a willingness to learn and implement them as you progress. What is wrong is to take an "I-don't-care" attitude about submitting sub-par work to others. I believe the frustration with "young editors" is when they present their work to a post-house as a professional when it's clear that they don't have the professional knowledge. Now, if they're never going to have to "interface" their work with other people the issue becomes moot. The best advice given in the blog is to find out how the people you're working with want to receive materials. When you submit the way they want, you get the best service!