External HD not like XL1 footage? at DVinfo.net

Allan Michaud · July 7th, 2003, 03:22 AM

Hi all
this is wierd. I have an 800hz imac with dvd burner, 60gb hd and I want to get footage from my (pal) XL1 into Final Cut Pro 3. It works just fine when putting it into the internal HD but when I try to save it to my ext 120gb HD it drops frames and looks awful. I took the ext HD back to the shop, we tried 2 more firewire cables, 3 different ext HD and a different Mac but the same thing happened. We also tried a different camera, a small 1 ccd sony, this worked just fine into either HD with either cable so whats going on (been thru all this using imovie too and same results). The ext HD doesn't like my XL1??? eh! The shop wasn't much help and appears to have even less idea than me. My guess, there is a HD speed issue here but according to the shop the HD
is a fast one. Its a Maxtor diamond max plus 9 (apparently the plus means its a fast one) 120gb ATA/133HDD 3.5" series. 1 option would be to get a bigger internal HD but I read of problems with FCP if you use same HD to save footage as the system is set up on...HELP. ps I will be up a tree in the cambodian jungle for the next 3 weeks so I can't reply to any advice. cheers
Allan

Jeff Price · July 7th, 2003, 10:02 AM

According to Maxtor technical representatives it is NOT the hard drive but the way the XL1 (and GL1) implemented firewire. The same thing has happened to me on a PC. YMMV, but my experiencecertainly matches what the Maxtor tech support told me (and you report here).

I had some success using a PCMCIA card on a PC laptop and saving to the external drive that way. Otherwise I have resorted to saving to the internal drive and copying over to the external for editing. Not an elegant solution.

Another possibility is to get a cheap Sony to use as a tape playback unit and use it for capturing - saves wear and tear on your XL1 heads.

Allan Michaud · July 23rd, 2003, 06:38 AM

Many thanks Jeff, I had been hoping to buy a small 3ccd sony for many reasons including saving the heads on my XL1, however, I am not rich enough right now. 2 concerns here, if I buy a small single ccd camera for capturing surely I will lose some of the high quality of the XL1 footage? or will a single ccd camera play it back as the same quality? Difficult to tell from what I have seen so far as the screens being used were not the best quality available, the sony camera was only a cheap model (not sure which) and it looked ok. I am trying to produce a short film for broadcast so i do not want to lose any image quality. If I can find the cash to buy a 3CCD sony will I still have the same problem (i had assumed it was down to the amount of info going down the cable, 1ccd as opposed to 3ccd) or is this just a canon camera problem as you mention?

Jeff Price · July 23rd, 2003, 08:33 AM

Once the footage is on the tape then there is no loss of quality in using a lesser camera as the deck providing you transfer the footage via firewire. The image on the tape is just a series on 1s and 0s and are then independent of the camera's optical quality but are at the mercy of the camera's firewire implementation.

I'd recommend borrowing someones mini-DV camera to see if it helped with your problem but with tape incompatibility issues it is probably too risky!

Another option, though a bit pricier than a cheap single-chip mini-DV would be one of the JVC decks (around $1000). These have mini-DV and sVHS in one deck so they are good for those times you need to dub to VHS for clients.

Bud Kuenzli · July 23rd, 2003, 09:42 AM

it may also be the enclosure. I had to pull an 80 gig drive from an old enclosure when I realized it would not work with my Panasonic deck. I put the drive into another enclosure and it works fine. You might also try defragmenting or reformatting it.

Allan Michaud · July 23rd, 2003, 10:13 PM

Hi guys
I already tried using a small sony camera to capture to the ext HD which worked fine so I guess that means the enclosure is ok. Bud, you using an XL1? if so this would suggest it may not be the camera causing the problem after all.
Jeff, I am really a stills photographer so much of this is new to me, you mention tape incompatability? I use just one tape (sony) and do not chop and change as everyone seems to recomend, what sort of problems might arise using these tapes in another machine. Can using another camera damage the original recordings? What i have is impossible to replace, all original footage of various wildlife not previously filmed in the wild here in Cambodia so its invaluble, we are talking 18 months of work so far so i am a little paranoid of losing/damaging it.

Jeff Donald · July 24th, 2003, 05:19 AM

It could possibly be the drive enclosure, as Bud suggests. The only way to check would be to try a different external drive, making sure it uses the Oxford 911 chip set, the de facto standard for fast FireWire transfers.

What version of OS X are you running and how much ram is installed in your iMac?

As a work around, capture to the internal drive, then copy to the external drive. It slows down the work flow, but it's safe and allows the use of the XL1.

Where is the application FCP installed? Is it on the external drive or the internal drive?

Allan Michaud · July 24th, 2003, 07:23 AM

Thx Jeff, FCP is installed on the internal drive, I have 60gb int HD of which about 40 remains unused, it has 512 ram and I use OSX 10.2.4. Unfortunately I can only easily use shops in Bangkok and good Mac shops are few and far between here, I will have a look about for a different HD over the next week and see if i can find
the relevant item.

Jeff Donald · July 24th, 2003, 07:38 AM

You may want to up the ram when the budget permits. In looking for HD it doesn't have to say specifically for Mac. The main thing is the Oxford 911 chip set for the FireWire.

Jeff Price · July 24th, 2003, 11:58 AM

Allan,

Different tape companies use different types of lubricant in their tape stocks. Mixing tapes from different companies can cause head clogs. As long as YOU are sticking to the same brand of tape in YOUR camera this should not be a problem (and if you ever find yourself in the situation where you must switch tape stocks, clean the heads first but it doesn't guarantee there will be no problems).

Sony makes good tape but uses a lubricant different than most other companies so you shouldn't mix Sony tapes with any other brand. I brought this issue up in terms of borrowing a camera since you don't necessarily know what type of tapes they have been using.

If the footage is truly irreplaceable and you now have two cameras you can dupe the tape. Connect the cameras via firewire, place both of them in VCR mode and play back on one while recording on the other. Since it is a data stream coming across the firewire there should be no degradation (or very little).

Your success at using the small Sony camera suggests your problems are with Canon's implementation of basic firewire - no surprise. I love my Canon but their firewire implementation STINKS!

Allan Michaud · August 19th, 2003, 09:07 PM

Jeff Donald and anyone else
The Mac shop here in Bangkok have since told me they have a new casing with an oxford 922 chip set, any idea if this makes any difference? or am i still going to have the previously mentioned problem that the XL1 is a bit odd in implementing the firewire. I am all but resigned to having to buy a cheap Sony to do this.
Is there anyone out there who HAS managed to get footage from an XL1 into an ext HD without having to copy it from their internal HD first (mac's only). If so, just what equipment are you using?
cheers all
Allan

Jeff Donald · August 20th, 2003, 05:46 AM

The new 922 chipset probably won't make a difference, it provides FireWire 800 compatability. Drives with 922 could be a better investment as it allows use with the newer standard.

July 7th, 2003, 03:22 AM	#1
Allan Michaud Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: kent,UK Posts: 30	External HD not like XL1 footage? Hi all this is wierd. I have an 800hz imac with dvd burner, 60gb hd and I want to get footage from my (pal) XL1 into Final Cut Pro 3. It works just fine when putting it into the internal HD but when I try to save it to my ext 120gb HD it drops frames and looks awful. I took the ext HD back to the shop, we tried 2 more firewire cables, 3 different ext HD and a different Mac but the same thing happened. We also tried a different camera, a small 1 ccd sony, this worked just fine into either HD with either cable so whats going on (been thru all this using imovie too and same results). The ext HD doesn't like my XL1??? eh! The shop wasn't much help and appears to have even less idea than me. My guess, there is a HD speed issue here but according to the shop the HD is a fast one. Its a Maxtor diamond max plus 9 (apparently the plus means its a fast one) 120gb ATA/133HDD 3.5" series. 1 option would be to get a bigger internal HD but I read of problems with FCP if you use same HD to save footage as the system is set up on...HELP. ps I will be up a tree in the cambodian jungle for the next 3 weeks so I can't reply to any advice. cheers Allan

July 7th, 2003, 10:02 AM	#2
Jeff Price Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chico, California Posts: 357	According to Maxtor technical representatives it is NOT the hard drive but the way the XL1 (and GL1) implemented firewire. The same thing has happened to me on a PC. YMMV, but my experiencecertainly matches what the Maxtor tech support told me (and you report here). I had some success using a PCMCIA card on a PC laptop and saving to the external drive that way. Otherwise I have resorted to saving to the internal drive and copying over to the external for editing. Not an elegant solution. Another possibility is to get a cheap Sony to use as a tape playback unit and use it for capturing - saves wear and tear on your XL1 heads. __________________ Jeff Price Flickerflix Nature Videos flickerflix@yahoo.com

July 23rd, 2003, 08:33 AM	#4
Jeff Price Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chico, California Posts: 357	Once the footage is on the tape then there is no loss of quality in using a lesser camera as the deck providing you transfer the footage via firewire. The image on the tape is just a series on 1s and 0s and are then independent of the camera's optical quality but are at the mercy of the camera's firewire implementation. I'd recommend borrowing someones mini-DV camera to see if it helped with your problem but with tape incompatibility issues it is probably too risky! Another option, though a bit pricier than a cheap single-chip mini-DV would be one of the JVC decks (around $1000). These have mini-DV and sVHS in one deck so they are good for those times you need to dub to VHS for clients. __________________ Jeff Price Flickerflix Nature Videos flickerflix@yahoo.com

July 23rd, 2003, 09:42 AM	#5
Bud Kuenzli Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 197	could be the enclosure it may also be the enclosure. I had to pull an 80 gig drive from an old enclosure when I realized it would not work with my Panasonic deck. I put the drive into another enclosure and it works fine. You might also try defragmenting or reformatting it. __________________ on the Internet, when you get where you're going you still don't know where you are

July 24th, 2003, 05:19 AM	#7
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	It could possibly be the drive enclosure, as Bud suggests. The only way to check would be to try a different external drive, making sure it uses the Oxford 911 chip set, the de facto standard for fast FireWire transfers. What version of OS X are you running and how much ram is installed in your iMac? As a work around, capture to the internal drive, then copy to the external drive. It slows down the work flow, but it's safe and allows the use of the XL1. Where is the application FCP installed? Is it on the external drive or the internal drive? __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 23rd, 2003, 06:38 AM	#3
Allan Michaud Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: kent,UK Posts: 30	Many thanks Jeff, I had been hoping to buy a small 3ccd sony for many reasons including saving the heads on my XL1, however, I am not rich enough right now. 2 concerns here, if I buy a small single ccd camera for capturing surely I will lose some of the high quality of the XL1 footage? or will a single ccd camera play it back as the same quality? Difficult to tell from what I have seen so far as the screens being used were not the best quality available, the sony camera was only a cheap model (not sure which) and it looked ok. I am trying to produce a short film for broadcast so i do not want to lose any image quality. If I can find the cash to buy a 3CCD sony will I still have the same problem (i had assumed it was down to the amount of info going down the cable, 1ccd as opposed to 3ccd) or is this just a canon camera problem as you mention?

July 23rd, 2003, 10:13 PM	#6
Allan Michaud Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: kent,UK Posts: 30	Hi guys I already tried using a small sony camera to capture to the ext HD which worked fine so I guess that means the enclosure is ok. Bud, you using an XL1? if so this would suggest it may not be the camera causing the problem after all. Jeff, I am really a stills photographer so much of this is new to me, you mention tape incompatability? I use just one tape (sony) and do not chop and change as everyone seems to recomend, what sort of problems might arise using these tapes in another machine. Can using another camera damage the original recordings? What i have is impossible to replace, all original footage of various wildlife not previously filmed in the wild here in Cambodia so its invaluble, we are talking 18 months of work so far so i am a little paranoid of losing/damaging it.

July 24th, 2003, 07:23 AM	#8
Allan Michaud Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: kent,UK Posts: 30	Thx Jeff, FCP is installed on the internal drive, I have 60gb int HD of which about 40 remains unused, it has 512 ram and I use OSX 10.2.4. Unfortunately I can only easily use shops in Bangkok and good Mac shops are few and far between here, I will have a look about for a different HD over the next week and see if i can find the relevant item.

July 24th, 2003, 07:38 AM	#9
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	You may want to up the ram when the budget permits. In looking for HD it doesn't have to say specifically for Mac. The main thing is the Oxford 911 chip set for the FireWire. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 24th, 2003, 11:58 AM	#10
Jeff Price Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chico, California Posts: 357	Allan, Different tape companies use different types of lubricant in their tape stocks. Mixing tapes from different companies can cause head clogs. As long as YOU are sticking to the same brand of tape in YOUR camera this should not be a problem (and if you ever find yourself in the situation where you must switch tape stocks, clean the heads first but it doesn't guarantee there will be no problems). Sony makes good tape but uses a lubricant different than most other companies so you shouldn't mix Sony tapes with any other brand. I brought this issue up in terms of borrowing a camera since you don't necessarily know what type of tapes they have been using. If the footage is truly irreplaceable and you now have two cameras you can dupe the tape. Connect the cameras via firewire, place both of them in VCR mode and play back on one while recording on the other. Since it is a data stream coming across the firewire there should be no degradation (or very little). Your success at using the small Sony camera suggests your problems are with Canon's implementation of basic firewire - no surprise. I love my Canon but their firewire implementation STINKS! __________________ Jeff Price Flickerflix Nature Videos flickerflix@yahoo.com

August 19th, 2003, 09:07 PM	#11
Allan Michaud Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: kent,UK Posts: 30	Jeff Donald and anyone else The Mac shop here in Bangkok have since told me they have a new casing with an oxford 922 chip set, any idea if this makes any difference? or am i still going to have the previously mentioned problem that the XL1 is a bit odd in implementing the firewire. I am all but resigned to having to buy a cheap Sony to do this. Is there anyone out there who HAS managed to get footage from an XL1 into an ext HD without having to copy it from their internal HD first (mac's only). If so, just what equipment are you using? cheers all Allan

August 20th, 2003, 05:46 AM	#12
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	The new 922 chipset probably won't make a difference, it provides FireWire 800 compatability. Drives with 922 could be a better investment as it allows use with the newer standard. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors