Canon XL & XH 24F, 25F, 30F capture in FCP / FCE

Kevin Wild · January 4th, 2007, 09:08 PM

Yes, sounds right. It's not a worry unless you need true 24P for either going to another tape format (which we were...going to the SONY deck to match other footage that was 24P) or doing a filmout.

Good luck.

Heath McKnight · January 4th, 2007, 09:28 PM

That link worked and I saw it. Thanks, Evan.

I talked to Apple, as well...they said unless you read about it, that's the problem--it's not labeled as 24F in FCP, so not too many non-XL H1 users know about it.

I'm going to try and get an XL H1 and capture the footage and analyze it, then go back to tape. I want to see if the clip is 24F or 29.97 fps.

heath

Evan Donn · January 5th, 2007, 01:34 AM

Haven't had any time to really shoot/capture much to check this out but I just ran a quick capture of a few seconds of 24f footage through DVHSCap. Looking at the raw m2t file in MPEG Streamclip it reports:

Video Tracks:
2064 MPEG-2, 1440 × 1080, 16:9, 23.976 fps, 25.00 Mbps, lower field first

So I don't know exactly what to make of that - visually it appears to be true 24p footage, Stepping through frame by frame there's clearly no pulldown or interlacing visible in the file, and there are only 24 frames a second. The 'lower field first' is odd though - I tried a second clip and it came out saying 'upper field first', so I'm assuming it's an error in MPEG Streamclip and not an accurate representation of the video.

Curtis Rhoads · January 5th, 2007, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan Donn

If canon is in fact recording a 24p signal within the standard 25Mbs HDV bandwidth then it would simply mean they are applying less compression per individual frame, as well as avoiding potential interlaced compression artifacts. However, this would also make the signal incompatible with any other HDV deck which expects to find a 60i stream on the tape - which seems to be exactly what's happening.

This is exactly what seems to be happening. The 24p signal is being recorded as 24 actual frames a second, using less compression, which does in fact account for the signal incompatibility with other HDV products. If the signal was being laid down in 60i, then we'd be able to use standard decks, much like with the DVX and XL2.

Barlow Elton has played around with the HD-SDI stuff more than any other H1 owner that I know of, and he says that 24F is laid down into 60i when going through HD-SDI, and that once recorded, you need to remove the pulldown to bring it back to 24p. Barlow also mentioned that FCP seems to be able to write 24F back out to tape. So if you capture 24F, edit and then need to go back to tape, that FCP will write out 24F back to tape correctly. I haven't tried this, as I haven't had a need to go back to tape yet! :)

As for DVHSCap, M2T's and MPEGStreamClip, there could be a glitch in either DVHSCap or StreamClip. Everything that I've captured with DVHSCap and bring into StreamClip that was shot 24F, shows upper field first every time. Maybe DVHSCap flagged something wrong. Maybe StreamClip read the flags wrong. Hard to say really.

At this point, it's pretty obvious to me, and most other H1 and A1 owners that 24F is laying down 24 distinct frames per second to tape. And at least to me, it's obvious that FCP is able to capture 24F using 5.1.2 with no problems, when using the Easy Setup for 1080p24.

Heath McKnight · January 5th, 2007, 02:57 PM

Curtis,

Right-click on a captured 24F clip and select Cinema Tools, then select analyze clip. Does it say 24p, 23.98 fps, 24F or 29.97 fps? If it's 29.97 fps, see if you can conform it to 23.98 fps or at least remove the pulldown, if there is one (and it's 29.97 fps). Try outputting it from FCP as a 23.98 fps QT Movie or QT Conversion.

Let us know what happens.

thanks,

heath

Curtis Rhoads · January 5th, 2007, 03:15 PM

Ok, I grabbed one my clips from Halloween that was shot 24F and captured in FCP 5.1.2. Little background info... Using FCP Easy Setup 1080p24, clip was captured using Capture Now from inside FCP's capture window, and was captured to a file using the Apple HDV codec.

Cinema Tools reports the fps to be 23.98. I took a snapshot and posted it here:

http://www.realm.cc/upload/crhoads/Picture%201.png

Out of all the 24F captured footage that I've got on my drive right now, I checked about 7 different clips, and they all report 23.98 fps.

*Edit : Goofed on which codec is being used. Fixed.*

Heath McKnight · January 5th, 2007, 03:48 PM

Curtis,

I wonder if making that an uncompressed HD file at 23.98 fps, if someone could take that to a post-house and put it on HDCAM or DVCPro HD?

heath

ps-That shot was scary-looking. nice!

Kevin Wild · January 5th, 2007, 07:18 PM

Yes, this is what we went though. If shot, captured via Final Cut 24f and played out 24P via a Kona (only one we tested), it will be true 24P into a SONY deck.

If it's output directly from camera to the deck (via component or HD SDI), it will be read as 60i.

Heath McKnight · January 5th, 2007, 07:55 PM

I'm trying to figure out why it's packaged in a 60i stream ONLY out HD SDI...

heath

Lance Alton Troxel · January 8th, 2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

Curtis,

Right-click on a captured 24F clip and select Cinema Tools, then select analyze clip. Does it say 24p, 23.98 fps, 24F or 29.97 fps? If it's 29.97 fps, see if you can conform it to 23.98 fps or at least remove the pulldown, if there is one (and it's 29.97 fps). Try outputting it from FCP as a 23.98 fps QT Movie or QT Conversion.

Let us know what happens.

thanks,

heath

I've just finished filming with 24f in SD, not HD, on the Canon A1 and can't seem to capture without interlacing. Is it possible FCP is only reading 24f with HD footage? I'm going to try the above, but on the chance anyone can answer why I'm having this problem, gonna give a shout for help.

Thanks!

Evan Donn · January 8th, 2007, 11:39 PM

take a look at page 41 in the manual, it does a good visual job of illustrating what's going on with the various frame modes. Basically, a true 24p signal is only recorded in HDV mode. SD goes to tape in an interlaced signal with either a standard 2:3 pulldown or a 2:3:3:2 mode which I believe would be equivalent to panasonic's 24p advanced mode - so you'd want to use the second mode if you plan to edit the footage as 24p in FCP, there's a lot of good info about this here (scroll down pretty far for the Final Cut Pro settings):

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage..._nattress.html

Lance Alton Troxel · January 10th, 2007, 11:34 AM

Funny enough that's what I came up with, mostly by accident. Thanks for the tip in the manuel. Will def give it a read.

Paul Kendal · January 25th, 2007, 05:51 AM

OK....just got a new A1 and now I am trying to figure out the proper settings for capture and editing 30f in FCP.

I'm sure someone has already done this....so would you care to share your settings for capture and also your timeline settings for editing.

THANKS!!!

Chuck Fadely · January 28th, 2007, 01:19 PM

I just tried 30F for the first time. Captured fine on 1080i60 easy setup on the sony firewire setting. FCP 5.1.2, capturing from camera. 1080i60 timeline. Looks beautiful and looks progressive. Frame grabs have no scan lines and no strobing. Don't understand how it works, but it's cool.

Jonathan Nelson · January 28th, 2007, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Fadely

I just tried 30F for the first time. Captured fine on 1080i60 easy setup on the sony firewire setting. FCP 5.1.2, capturing from camera. 1080i60 timeline. Looks beautiful and looks progressive. Frame grabs have no scan lines and no strobing. Don't understand how it works, but it's cool.

I thought 30f captures progressively like 1080p30?

January 4th, 2007, 09:28 PM	#47
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	That link worked and I saw it. Thanks, Evan. I talked to Apple, as well...they said unless you read about it, that's the problem--it's not labeled as 24F in FCP, so not too many non-XL H1 users know about it. I'm going to try and get an XL H1 and capture the footage and analyze it, then go back to tape. I want to see if the clip is 24F or 29.97 fps. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 5th, 2007, 02:57 PM	#50
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Curtis, Right-click on a captured 24F clip and select Cinema Tools, then select analyze clip. Does it say 24p, 23.98 fps, 24F or 29.97 fps? If it's 29.97 fps, see if you can conform it to 23.98 fps or at least remove the pulldown, if there is one (and it's 29.97 fps). Try outputting it from FCP as a 23.98 fps QT Movie or QT Conversion. Let us know what happens. thanks, heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 5th, 2007, 03:48 PM	#52
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Curtis, I wonder if making that an uncompressed HD file at 23.98 fps, if someone could take that to a post-house and put it on HDCAM or DVCPro HD? heath ps-That shot was scary-looking. nice! __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 5th, 2007, 07:55 PM	#54
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I'm trying to figure out why it's packaged in a 60i stream ONLY out HD SDI... heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 25th, 2007, 05:51 AM	#58
Paul Kendal Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Asheville, North Carolina Posts: 89	Canon 30F capture and editing in Final Cut Pro OK....just got a new A1 and now I am trying to figure out the proper settings for capture and editing 30f in FCP. I'm sure someone has already done this....so would you care to share your settings for capture and also your timeline settings for editing. THANKS!!! __________________ Canon HV20 \| Sony FX1 \| Canon XH-A1 \| Sony XDCam EX1 \| 8 Core Mac with FCP and lots of Hard Drives Last edited by Paul Kendal; January 25th, 2007 at 06:44 AM.

January 4th, 2007, 09:08 PM	#46
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	Yes, sounds right. It's not a worry unless you need true 24P for either going to another tape format (which we were...going to the SONY deck to match other footage that was 24P) or doing a filmout. Good luck.

January 5th, 2007, 01:34 AM	#48
Evan Donn Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 795	Haven't had any time to really shoot/capture much to check this out but I just ran a quick capture of a few seconds of 24f footage through DVHSCap. Looking at the raw m2t file in MPEG Streamclip it reports: Video Tracks: 2064 MPEG-2, 1440 × 1080, 16:9, 23.976 fps, 25.00 Mbps, lower field first So I don't know exactly what to make of that - visually it appears to be true 24p footage, Stepping through frame by frame there's clearly no pulldown or interlacing visible in the file, and there are only 24 frames a second. The 'lower field first' is odd though - I tried a second clip and it came out saying 'upper field first', so I'm assuming it's an error in MPEG Streamclip and not an accurate representation of the video.

January 5th, 2007, 03:15 PM	#51
Curtis Rhoads Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orem, UT Posts: 76	Ok, I grabbed one my clips from Halloween that was shot 24F and captured in FCP 5.1.2. Little background info... Using FCP Easy Setup 1080p24, clip was captured using Capture Now from inside FCP's capture window, and was captured to a file using the Apple HDV codec. Cinema Tools reports the fps to be 23.98. I took a snapshot and posted it here: http://www.realm.cc/upload/crhoads/Picture%201.png Out of all the 24F captured footage that I've got on my drive right now, I checked about 7 different clips, and they all report 23.98 fps. Edit : Goofed on which codec is being used. Fixed.

January 5th, 2007, 07:18 PM	#53
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	Yes, this is what we went though. If shot, captured via Final Cut 24f and played out 24P via a Kona (only one we tested), it will be true 24P into a SONY deck. If it's output directly from camera to the deck (via component or HD SDI), it will be read as 60i.

January 8th, 2007, 11:39 PM	#56
Evan Donn Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 795	take a look at page 41 in the manual, it does a good visual job of illustrating what's going on with the various frame modes. Basically, a true 24p signal is only recorded in HDV mode. SD goes to tape in an interlaced signal with either a standard 2:3 pulldown or a 2:3:3:2 mode which I believe would be equivalent to panasonic's 24p advanced mode - so you'd want to use the second mode if you plan to edit the footage as 24p in FCP, there's a lot of good info about this here (scroll down pretty far for the Final Cut Pro settings): http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage..._nattress.html

January 10th, 2007, 11:34 AM	#57
Lance Alton Troxel Tourist Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oregon, CA Posts: 3	Funny enough that's what I came up with, mostly by accident. Thanks for the tip in the manuel. Will def give it a read.

January 28th, 2007, 01:19 PM	#59
Chuck Fadely Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: United States Posts: 306	I just tried 30F for the first time. Captured fine on 1080i60 easy setup on the sony firewire setting. FCP 5.1.2, capturing from camera. 1080i60 timeline. Looks beautiful and looks progressive. Frame grabs have no scan lines and no strobing. Don't understand how it works, but it's cool.