Canon XL & XH 24F, 25F, 30F capture in FCP / FCE

[Gabriel Fleming]

I'm experiencing a few really strange problems with 24F HDV footage from my Canon XL H1, which Final Cut Pro is supposed to support as of 5.1.2. Here are the biggest two:

Problem1: Video jumps back on playback

When stepping through a clip frame-by-frame, the video and audio are perfectly in sync. But when I hit play, it plays about 7 to 10 frames earlier in the footage, throwing the video and audio out of sync.

This is true EVEN WHEN A CLIP IS EDITED INTO A SEQUENCE. If I step through, mark an in, and cut that into a timeline, it cuts it in on the proper frame, when stepping through the sequence. But when the sequence is played back, at each cut it plays back an earlier portion of the video, by 7 to 10 frames. In other words, when played back, there is video in the sequence that should not be there, and that is not there when the sequence is stepped-through frame by frame.

I did a few further tests: When I export a Quicktime movie, or export using Compressor, the sequence is good and all the cuts are proper in the exported files. But when I export using "Quicktime conversion," the wrong video frames are exported. Bizarre.

What the devil is going on here?


Problem 2: The timecode shifts

I digitized a few clips from some tapes, and everything was okay for a while (except for the aforementioned problem). The timecodes on all my clips were proper as I worked with the clips for a good half-hour. I saved and quit, and then started up again, and found, to my shock, that the timecode had CHANGED on my digitized 24F clips. The timecode had actually shifted backwards on each clip by a random amount, ranging from 40 seconds to 1 minute. Some shifted back to timecodes that don't exist on the original tapes. One clip, for example, originally had a Media Start of 12:00:30:10, and it shifted back to 11:59:43:17 (something like that). This happened with every single 24F clip that I digitized. Interestingly, though, the 30F clips from the same tapes remained solid and unchanged.

What the devil is going on here? Has anyone else experienced this?

I should note that I'm working on a Powerbook G4 1.5GHz and 768MB RAM, OS X 10.4.8, FCP 5.1.2. (not the proper amount of RAM for HD in FCP, but that shouldn't cause these problems, should it?)

[Kevin Wild]

I did one project using HDV clips and will never again. I know some people have it working for them, but it didn't for me. Clips did very strange things like you mentioned...some showed being unrendered, but only half the clip was unrendered with no effects on it! Very strange stuff. (Mac Quad G5, 2 gigs ram, Disk array)

We're back to doing everything DVCPro HD. Convergent Devices box arrives this week so we can have timecode, too.

KW

[Dave Perry]

Steve,

What I do is after editing the HD sequence, I save a FCP master file, self contained. From there I downconvert in Compressor to whatever codec I need (usualy 10 bit Beta SP) and put it in a Beta SP timeline. I make sure the clip is checked off as Anamorphic so it will letterbox in the timeline, then render, then print to Beta SP.

[Heath McKnight]

24F is not supported yet on Final Cut Pro, only 60i and 30F (not sure about 25F, is someone can verify).

I edit HDV daily on Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 with no problems; I even convert Sony HDV 50i footage shot with CineFrame 25 to 23.98 fps without a problem, via Cinema Tools.

I think the next version will support removing the pulldown on both the V1u and Canon HDV cameras (24F), and will hopefully support 24F, period.

If you're trying to work with something that isn't supported by the latest versions of any software, try some workarounds. For FCP, try www.lumierehd.com.

heath

[Heath McKnight]

Originally Posted by Gabriel Fleming

I should note that I'm working on a Powerbook G4 1.5GHz and 768MB RAM, OS X 10.4.8, FCP 5.1.2. (not the proper amount of RAM for HD in FCP, but that shouldn't cause these problems, should it?)

You need a LOT more RAM and HDV is taxing stuff to edit, but Final Cut handles it better than any other NLE, in terms of native m2t. We have a G4 where I work, dual 700 or 800 mhz, and it's a bit slow with newer versions of FCP, because it's optimized for 64 bit processors and you can see it causing sluggishness.

If it continues to be a problem, try www.lumierehd.com like I mentioned, but an increase in RAM will definitely help. Also, keep your systems up-to-date and well-maintained. www.macosxcocktail.com and DiskWarrior (www.alsoft.com) are great for doing this and D.W. is the best for saving a computer that I've seen.

heath

[Curtis Rhoads]

Actually, Apple says that the XL H1 is supported using the 24F and 25F modes in their document here : http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Fin..._5.0_lbn_z.pdf under the "HDV Format Support and Easy Setups" heading.

I've been using FCP 5.1.2 since it was released to capture 24F from an XL H1 and have had no problems so far. FCP even captures exactly like it's laid to tape, and that is as 24 seperate frames per second. Now, I'm not sure if this is a big deal or not, but I've always just setup using the HDV 1080p/24 Easy Setup setting. I believe that this defaults to capturing using the Apple Intermediate Codec, which has given me no problems.

Unfortunately, I've never encountered either of these problems. I'm not sure if the amount of RAM would cause it, but I've even been able to run FCP in my Intel Mac Mini, with 2 Gig of RAM, and it works there just as well as on the Mac Pro I usually edit on.


[Edit: To fix on of the F modes listed at the beginning.]

[Heath McKnight]

I don't think that's right, as I've talked to Apple directly, though that was a few months ago. My friend tried using 1080p24 for both 24F and V1u 24p footage with no success. That setting is for Sony's F330 and F350. I also tried capturing 24F footage on my system with no luck.

Both the 24p (V1u) and 24F footage is packaged in a 60i stream, but unlike the V1u, the Canon and Apple's FCP are still having communication issues. I'll contact Apple again and see if something changed since I talked to them. Not sure which version of FCP I was using when I spoke to them.

UPDATE: See my post below with some minor corrections. Sorry for mixing up 2:3 pulldown with 3:2 pull up.

Heath

[Curtis Rhoads]

Well, we know that 24F is _NOT_ laid down in a 60i stream, because if it was, then standard HDV decks would be able to read the signal, and all us Canon owners would have decks we could use! The V1U's 24P is recorded in a 60i stream, and thus the tapes can be played back on standard HDV decks.

While I have heard that FCP 5.1.2 will not capture from the V1U (something odd about how it's laid in that 60i stream), myself and and several other people who own Canon 24F camera's have had no problems using FCP 5.1.2 to capture 24F. We've discussed this over at xlcinema.com, where we used to have discussions about workarounds on getting footage into FCP.

Call Apple if you feel you must. The Apple document I linked to will be proof enough for me, especially since it lists the Canon XL H1 specifically when talking about support for 24F and 25F. Not to mention the fact that I've captured with my own systems from 24F.

Heath, I love the info you provide and respect you a lot. However, you're off base here, dude! :) Maybe calling Apple and checking with them, will provide solid info (that their own docs don't?). And if the person says that 24F from the Canon's are not supported, then why does it work for me and others, and why does Apple claim it to work in a public doc?

[Heath McKnight]

sorry, got my wires crossed on 2:3 pulldown and 3:2 pull up. Check out this page:

http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/articles/article06.php

and specifically this:

"When the XL H1 is set to Frame recording, the CCDs are actually clocked at 24 frames per second. The video signal remains at 24fps as it is passed from the CCD block to the baseband LSI, and through the HD Codec LSI. Only when it reaches the recording output stage is it resampled to 60i via a 3:2 pull-up method."

Adam Wilt (http://adamwilt.com/) hasn't explained it yet, and not many people know the secrets of the XL H1, etc., and how 24F and 30F work.

As for the V1u, you can capture 24p footage in Final Cut 5.1.2, but you can't remove the pulldown yet. Only Sony Vegas can remove the pulldown so far, but I won't be surprised if most support it soon.

I'll call Apple and see if maybe I called them last BEFORE the 5.1.2 release last year. Could be they said no on 5.1's release.

heath

[Evan Donn]

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

"Only when it reaches the recording output stage is it resampled to 60i via a 3:2 pull-up method."

Adam Wilt (http://adamwilt.com/) hasn't explained it yet, and not many people know the secrets of the XL H1, etc., and how 24F and 30F work.

As for the V1u, you can capture 24p footage in Final Cut 5.1.2, but you can't remove the pulldown yet. Only Sony Vegas can remove the pulldown so far, but I won't be surprised if most support it soon.

Maybe I'm confused here, but isn't the A1 recording 24p to tape, and then only adding the 3:2 on analog component playback - hence the term "recording output stage". I thought this was one of the big differences from the V1, which actually records 3:2 60i to tape. So FCP should not need to remove any pulldown for 24f footage.

[Evan Donn]

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

I'll call Apple and see if maybe I called them last BEFORE the 5.1.2 release last year. Could be they said no on 5.1's release.

from the Final Cut Pro Late Breaking News PDF for 5.1.2 (http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Fin....0_lbn_z.pdf):

HDV Format Support and Easy Setups
Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 includes native support and corresponding Easy Setups for the
following HDV formats:

720p24 and 720p25 (JVC GY-HD100 ProHD camcorder)

1080p24 and 1080p25 (Canon XL H1 HDV camcorder); also called 1080F24 and 1080F25

[Heath McKnight]

I have two thoughts on this...If it's shooting 24F (24 full frames), you'd get more than 60 minutes on a 60i tape (all tapes are 60i by default, but you can lay pretty much any signal on there). Unless Canon is using a different kind of signal going to tape, something more "robust," which makes 60 minutes take up the tape vs. around 65-70 minutes shot at 24 fps. IE, in 24F, you'd get more than 60 minutes on tape, around 4% more.

Does that make sense with the "more robust signal?" A DSR-11 Sony DV/DVCAM deck defaults to DVCAM when you first plug it in. I forgot to switch it over and dubbed a 40 minute project to a 60 minute DV tape (shot in minidv). Because it went to tape in DVCAM mode, that 40 minute project took up the entire tape!

heath

[Heath McKnight]

Evan,

That link didn't work.

heath

ps-I'll borrow a friend's XL H1 and use an old tape I still have of 24F footage and try it out.

[Kevin Wild]

We struggled with this recently on a big project. We were trying to get actual 24P (or 24F) out of some footage shot on the H1-24F. If memory serves me correctly, we tried HD SDI and it was 60i. We tried a Convergent Devices box...no go...still 60i. The only way we could get true 24P/F out of it was to capture via HDV into FCP and then output it back out using 24P/F.

I think I have this right. It was a nightmare, so it's been purged from my brain.

Why can't someone just put out a deck that supports Canon's most expensive camera and all of it's frame rates? :-)

KW

[Evan Donn]

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

That link didn't work.

odd... here's where I found it: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macos...cutpro512.html

click on the detailed info link at the bottom and it redirects to the pdf I linked before (maybe they just don't allow direct linking to the pdf).

As far as run times on tapes are concerned I think it's a mistake to say that all tapes are 60i by default. The tape is just a magnetic media onto which any signal could be recorded. If the transport runs at the standard DV/HDV speed then the run time of the tape will be the same regardless of the signal that's recorded onto it.

If canon is in fact recording a 24p signal within the standard 25Mbs HDV bandwidth then it would simply mean they are applying less compression per individual frame, as well as avoiding potential interlaced compression artifacts. However, this would also make the signal incompatible with any other HDV deck which expects to find a 60i stream on the tape - which seems to be exactly what's happening.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

If memory serves me correctly, we tried HD SDI and it was 60i. We tried a Convergent Devices box...no go...still 60i. The only way we could get true 24P/F out of it was to capture via HDV into FCP and then output it back out using 24P/F.

My A1 manual specifically says the output from both the SDI (on the G1, same manual for both) & Component terminal is down-converted to 60i (using 2:3 pulldown for 24f), but that output via firewire is progressive, so that would seem to match with what you're describing.