Convert 29.97 fps to 23.98 fps

[Urban Skargren]

Hi, I am finishing a film in 23.98 fps but my colorist accidently mastered in 29.97 fps and it can't be undone, what is the best way to get it back to 23.98 fps? I work in Final Cut Pro X 10.4.4.
When I view the files he sent me (in vlc for example), every fifth frame is a repeated still frame with no movement.
I import the files into a 23.98 fps timeline in FCPX, but that fifth freezed frame is still there (and also when I export).
How can I properly convert 29.97 fps into 23.98?

[Gary Huff]

You have to completely redo the color timing. The fact you got back rendered clips in 29.97 and your colorist cannot redo the render means that your colorist is an idiot.

[Urban Skargren]

Thank you Gary. The thing is that I think he would have to re-color everything from scratch (in Davinci), as I have understood there is no way to save the work he has done and get it into 23.98 fps without having to re-color every (+300) clip. Which is strange in itself for being a professional software..? I wish somebody could correct me on that. But I am still hoping there would be another way. I mean, technically I guess Davinci just added a duplicated image every fifth frame.

[Rainer Listing]

Urban, your problem is not unusual, and if it really is just a matter of removing every fifth frame, relatively trivial although not AFAIK available in FCP. Google "remove every fifth frame" and find a method that suits.

[Urban Skargren]

Originally Posted by Rainer Listing

Urban, your problem is not unusual, and if it really is just a matter of removing every fifth frame, relatively trivial although not AFAIK available in FCP. Google "remove every fifth frame" and find a method that suits.

Thanks, I'll try to find more info.
What I can't understand is why every fifth frame is still there even in a 23.98 fps timeline in Final Cut. I guess that means it jumps other frames but saves those duplicate ones. The pull-down is made but starting from the wrong frame I guess?

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Rainer Listing

Urban, your problem is not unusual, and if it really is just a matter of removing every fifth frame, relatively trivial although not AFAIK available in FCP. Google "remove every fifth frame" and find a method that suits.

If your film is worth doing right, then don't do this. You don't know what issues this will generate down the line. Unless your film isn't worth doing right, then feel free to half-ass away.

I don't understand why your "colorist" cannot simply re-export from Resolve in the correct frame rate. I would ask him to explain it in as explicit detail as he can, and then paste it here.

[Rainer Listing]

Gary, it's not "half assed, it's standard. If he's working in uncompressed and it really is a matter of just removing every fifth frame, I'd be interested in knowing what problems might occur. I agree, I don't understand why in this case it can't simply be re-exported from Resolve in the correct frame rate, but you don't often have the option.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Rainer Listing

Gary, it's not "half assed, it's standard.

In what context have you done this for a client in which you were paid for it?

I don't understand why in this case it can't simply be re-exported from Resolve in the correct frame rate, but you don't often have the option.

He has the option to have it completely redone if the colorist can't do it. It's a massive fuckup and if he can't make it right, then he should 100% refund the work done for making such a fundamental mistake that he apparently cannot resolve (pun intended).

[Urban Skargren]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

It's a massive fuckup and if he can't make it right, then he should 100% refund the work done for making such a fundamental mistake that he apparently cannot resolve (pun intended).

Your totally right. But, I need to be honest here... I just discovered it was my own mistake, I accidently had sent the master to him in 29.97. So throw it all on me... :D
I think we will need to find the way to re-color everything trying to save presets etc.
I am not deep into video technicalities, but I guess framerates are more complicated than one thinks... because to me creating a script that takes a video file of 30 frames per second, removes every fifth frame and leaves it to 24 frames per second doesn't sound like a lot of engineering...

[Gary Huff]

Why the hell are you sending a rendered file to your colorist instead of an XML of the edit with the footage exactly as it came off the camera?

[Rainer Listing]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

In what context have you done this for a client in which you were paid for it?
.

Occasionally you'll get a clip from a stock source, for example, Shutterstock, where there's this type of conversion error. In Nuke, for example, timewarp and the expression "frame //4*5+frame% 5" will remove every fifth frame.

[William Hohauser]

Mistakes happen. The problem is that you have to remove the 3:2 pull down which isn’t easy. After Effects has a pull-down removal feature with different pull down methods selectable. The problem is determining which frame the pull-down starts with if not the first frame. I had this problem recently with some old SD animation footage from tape. After Effects proved to be no help in this case.

Quite frankly, you should get the colorist to redo the whole thing by cut and pasting the adjustments from the 29.97 timeline. Yes, you’ll have to pay for a few hours of work but it’s worth it.

And not every colorist works with xml files although that’s the best way to finish the edit if you are adding lower thirds and other overlay graphics that shouldn’t be CCed with the image. Cuts only low budget independent films frequently send a single file to be CCed by the colorist.

[Urban Skargren]

I finally made a deal with the colorist to re-color the whole film in 24P, paying an extra fee. Don't remember the strange reason why we didn't do XML export the first time, but this time we did, and it worked. He could re-use many of the color settings from the earlier round, and when he was finished he exported out as separate clips with an XML från Resolve. The import back to FCP did not work smoothly with the xml (clips not found), instead I just imported all the clips normally and dropped them into the timeline in FCP and since Resolve names them with incrementing numbers, they just all fell in place in order.

A couple of things I learned along the way:
- Always work out a consistent framerate from the beginning (when planning a shoot) and stick to it rigorously down the whole post workflow
- Before sending to Resolve, replace photos and retimed clips with new video clips

Regarding if to denoise before or after migration to grading is another topic, but I learned a lot from that too.

Another mistake I made was to export the to work in 24P while most of the raw footage was 23.976P, I guess that can make some difference too? Since I had sent 24P to the sound mix, I stuck with it through the whole process.

Thanks a lot everybody for your input and help.

PS. Something curious I discovered along the way is that when I converted the whole film from 29.97 to 23.98 in MPEG Streamclip and put the second (or third or fourth) frame as in point, that changed the way frames were interpreted and actually got rid of duplicated frames and got movements to flow smoothly.... But working the whole project in the right framerate is definitely the way to go...

[Cary Knoop]

Originally Posted by Urban Skargren

Hi, I am finishing a film in 23.98 fps but my colorist accidently mastered in 29.97 fps and it can't be undone, what is the best way to get it back to 23.98 fps?

Simple, the colorist messed up, looks like he is going to have to do some unpaid overtime!

Originally Posted by Urban Skargren

I finally made a deal with the colorist to re-color the whole film in 24P, paying an extra fee.

If you are willing to pay him extra that is up to you, but he simply messed up so I do not see why you would have to pay him anything.

[Urban Skargren]

Pls read my earlier post, I messed it up, not the colorist. I sent it to him in 29.97. I discovered that after the grading was done and problems start showing.