XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions

William Hohauser · January 3rd, 2016, 12:08 PM

This is a point that we have to deal with now that nobody holds to any particular codec for any length of time anymore. Did JVC tell Apple that they were doing something unusual to the codec? How fast is Apple expected to react if they were told? Did JVC bother to test the codec with a reasonable number of PC and Mac computer models? This could also be a problem with the graphics board programming in a particular model as many computer programs now shift the video processing from the CPU to the graphic board. FCPX is one of them. Companies have development schedules that are hard to suddenly change. Sometimes third party developers are better equipped to react quickly. I remember how back in the DV tape deck days, JVC never programmed their FireWire connections properly and frequently the NLEs would not be able to recognize the decks until they were updated. Maybe the JVC 4K codec is screwy but I hope not.

Noa Put · January 3rd, 2016, 12:45 PM

I have no idea how a camera manufacturer communicates with a NLE manufacturer but one thing is for sure, there are no updates before the camera hits the market, just look at the h.265 codec from samsung, that also took a while before NLE's started to catch up.
I don't expect the JVC 4K codec to be screwy, something seems to have changed since fcp needs to transcode it before you can start to edit but that is not the case in other NLE's.

Steve Mullen · January 3rd, 2016, 06:53 PM

That cameras get ahead of NLE's is not new. It's always been the case. It's not unique to JVC nor Apple.

It is also is a minor problem. I've been editing LS300 UHD for weeks with FCPX and once I knew what to expect it has causd no real problem.

It's no different than my knowing that to edit 4K h.264 in Resolve I've got to let it transcode to PR422 Proxy BEFORE i can start editing.

And, if I shoot 2160p30 on MY computer I can only play at 25fps. Not a problem because I shoot 2160p24. But, if I shot 30p I'd have to deal with it.

When done editing in Resolve, I've got to transcode the original h.264 during the export.

In fact, because FCPX will play h264 without a transcode -- I can start editing immediately. So I'm one up on Resolve. But, when it comes to grading Resolve is one up on FCPX. All tools have limitations that we learn how to work with.

I believe the same issue affects Sony XAVC-L.

Craig Seeman · January 4th, 2016, 02:00 PM

I used the Sony PXW-X70 XAVC-L .mxf in FCPX without issues. Not only don't I optimize, FCPX doesn't even present it as an option with this codec.

It took something like six months for the camera firmware 2.0 update and the FCPX update to handle the codec though. The issue was on Sony's side. You may need to contact JVC about where there are with FCPX support.

Ron Evans · January 4th, 2016, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE=Craig Seeman;1906281..... The issue was on Sony's side. ....[/QUOTE]

I don't think it was Sony. Edius and I believe Premiere edited XAVC-L native files created by the X70 from day one. Firmware 2.0 is I believe QFHD paid upgrade. If you don't need this then the firmware for HD has not changed. So 3840x2160 XAVC-L at 24/25/30P the X70 equivalent of the FDRAX100 at XAVC-S. MXF wrapper instead of MOV. It is up to the NLE manufacturers to stay current and work with the camera manufactures not the other way around. ADOBE and Grass Valley seem to do a good job of this. If your NLE can't manage the files from the camera you want to use then change the NLE. They are all just tools.

Ron Evans

Steve Mullen · January 4th, 2016, 04:40 PM

"FCPX doesn't even present it as an option with this codec."

Are you saying that before the updates this was the case or is this the case after the updates?

There is an internal difference between the Sony and the JVC codec. The Sony codec employs 3 Reference frames while the JVC employs 2 Reference frames. The Sony codec is more efficient but more difficult to decode. Looks like FCPX simply refuses to do a background transcode with the Sony codec.

At least with the JVC codec it will do a background transcode. But, it does take time.

David Dixon · January 4th, 2016, 10:13 PM

Yes, FCPX does give the option of either editing the X70 XAVC-L clips natively or transcoding (in the background) to ProRes - unless you have old versions of the camera firmware or of FCPX - see below.

No, it couldn't do this at first, nor could Vegas or Avid. I don't know (or care) if it was an Apple issue or a Sony one, but I do know that it took updates from both Sony and Apple to make the files able to be ingested/edited natively. And it required a further update from Apple to extend this same compatibility to files from the 4K upgrade. And older clips shot using the old firmware still will not import even after you update the firmware. Native HD import/editing has been available since June, 4K since September.

No, the 2.0 firmware is not the same thing as the 4K upgrade, although the camera must be updated to 2.0 (free) for the 4K installer (not free) to work.

And, when you import clips, the circular progress icon doesn't necessarily mean that transcoding is taking place. Those show up if you are transcoding, but they also show up if FCPX is just copying the native clips into your Library.

William Hohauser · January 4th, 2016, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

It is up to the NLE manufacturers to stay current and work with the camera manufactures not the other way around.

Ron Evans

It's easy to say that. Then all NLE manufacturers would have to buy/rent every new camera put on the market. Not going to happen. AVID doesn't do this and they are top of the line if you are in broadcast/cinema production. Apple uses QuickTime as their base which has a strict set of parameters where the PC based NLEs do their own thing which makes the NLEs more tolerant of codecs that stray from industry specs. The specs are agreed upon to help with compatibility between products. If JVC has come up with a better way to handle 4K then it's up to them to make sure it works with the four major NLE programs out there either by providing the info to those companies or by supplying their own transcoding software. JVC is not a very big company these days, they are a good company but the pro division is now essentially on it's own and has less resources than years ago.

Ron Evans · January 5th, 2016, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Dixon

No, the 2.0 firmware is not the same thing as the 4K upgrade, although the camera must be updated to 2.0 (free) for the 4K installer (not free) to work.

First I do not have the X70 so cannot confirm anything associated with Ver 2.0 I can only go by what the Sony site says:-

Functions added with the “Ver. 2.00” firmware upgrade
• Recording/playing back/outputting in 4K (QFHD) (“CBKZ-X70FX” (sold separately) is
necessary)
• Proxy recording
• Network functions
– Streaming
– FTP transfer

So yes you are correct that the 4K upgrade is separate but do not see anything mentioning changing the codec. Focus is on streaming and network functions.

Ron Evans

Ron Evans · January 5th, 2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Hohauser

It's easy to say that. Then all NLE manufacturers would have to buy/rent every new camera put on the market. Not going to happen. AVID doesn't do this and they are top of the line if you are in broadcast/cinema production. Apple uses QuickTime as their base which has a strict set of parameters where the PC based NLEs do their own thing which makes the NLEs more tolerant of codecs that stray from industry specs. The specs are agreed upon to help with compatibility between products. If JVC has come up with a better way to handle 4K then it's up to them to make sure it works with the four major NLE programs out there either by providing the info to those companies or by supplying their own transcoding software. JVC is not a very big company these days, they are a good company but the pro division is now essentially on it's own and has less resources than years ago.

Sony is a pretty big camera manufacturer, keeping up with their developments, XAVC, XAVC-L and XAVC-S would be a worthwhile activity ? Edius ( Grass Valley who are also very big in broadcast I think ) seem to be able to do this just fine as does ADOBE and a lot of low cost consumer NLE's.

Ron Evans

David Dixon · January 5th, 2016, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

First I do not have the X70 so cannot confirm anything associated with Ver 2.0 I can only go by what the Sony site says:-

Functions added with the “Ver. 2.00” firmware upgrade
• Recording/playing back/outputting in 4K (QFHD) (“CBKZ-X70FX” (sold separately) is
necessary)
• Proxy recording
• Network functions
– Streaming
– FTP transfer

So yes you are correct that the 4K upgrade is separate but do not see anything mentioning changing the codec. Focus is on streaming and network functions.

Ron Evans

Well, I've owned the X70 since Dec. 2014, so I CAN confirm what happened with the 2.0 firmware upgrade. As the first bullet point suggests, the 2.0 firmware made 4K possible, but only if you subsequently bought and installed CBKZ-X70FX (the part number for the 4K upgrade). If you left the camera at firmware 1.0, the 4K would not install.

I don't know about the codec, but it is a fact that after the 2.0 firmware and a combination of FCPX updates and Apple Pro Codecs updates the XAVC-L could then be ingested and edited natively. But, the 4K XAVC-L still could not until a further update from Apple which came out about 3 months after the 4K upgrade shipped. And to my knowledge, Avid never did anything to enable the clips - Sony provided a plugin for that.

The really interesting part is that Sony Vegas could not import XAVC-L natively either for *several* months. I have to assume that communication between the camera and software divisions led to a solution. And my previous camera was a Canon XF100, which also took several months and updates from both Canon and Apple (including a new plugin from Canon) before the clips were natively usable in FCPX.

In reading back in this thread, it's unclear whether the problems with the JVC and FCPX that Paul mentioned were on import or on export. If it's import, then there may need to be communication/collaboration between the two companies as I've described above to sort it out. But if it's export, I wonder if he had the camera long enough to experiment with other output options that might not require transcoding.

Ron Evans · January 6th, 2016, 07:16 AM

I have a FDR-AX1 and a FDR-AX100. When the X70 came out I demoed one for comparison with the two I have that of course use XAVC-S. I can confirm that Edius will edit native XAVC-L just fine but Vegas 12 will not edit XAVC-L. I think the latest Vegas13 will but I have not upgraded to Vegas13 as my main editor is EDIUS and I use Vegas mainly for audio mixing. EDIUS makes an effort to edit anything native and most of the time succeeds.

Interesting times.

Ron Evans

January 3rd, 2016, 12:08 PM	#16
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Re: XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions This is a point that we have to deal with now that nobody holds to any particular codec for any length of time anymore. Did JVC tell Apple that they were doing something unusual to the codec? How fast is Apple expected to react if they were told? Did JVC bother to test the codec with a reasonable number of PC and Mac computer models? This could also be a problem with the graphics board programming in a particular model as many computer programs now shift the video processing from the CPU to the graphic board. FCPX is one of them. Companies have development schedules that are hard to suddenly change. Sometimes third party developers are better equipped to react quickly. I remember how back in the DV tape deck days, JVC never programmed their FireWire connections properly and frequently the NLEs would not be able to recognize the decks until they were updated. Maybe the JVC 4K codec is screwy but I hope not. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

January 3rd, 2016, 12:45 PM	#17
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions I have no idea how a camera manufacturer communicates with a NLE manufacturer but one thing is for sure, there are no updates before the camera hits the market, just look at the h.265 codec from samsung, that also took a while before NLE's started to catch up. I don't expect the JVC 4K codec to be screwy, something seems to have changed since fcp needs to transcode it before you can start to edit but that is not the case in other NLE's.

January 3rd, 2016, 06:53 PM	#18
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Re: XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions That cameras get ahead of NLE's is not new. It's always been the case. It's not unique to JVC nor Apple. It is also is a minor problem. I've been editing LS300 UHD for weeks with FCPX and once I knew what to expect it has causd no real problem. It's no different than my knowing that to edit 4K h.264 in Resolve I've got to let it transcode to PR422 Proxy BEFORE i can start editing. And, if I shoot 2160p30 on MY computer I can only play at 25fps. Not a problem because I shoot 2160p24. But, if I shot 30p I'd have to deal with it. When done editing in Resolve, I've got to transcode the original h.264 during the export. In fact, because FCPX will play h264 without a transcode -- I can start editing immediately. So I'm one up on Resolve. But, when it comes to grading Resolve is one up on FCPX. All tools have limitations that we learn how to work with. I believe the same issue affects Sony XAVC-L. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

January 4th, 2016, 02:00 PM	#19
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions I used the Sony PXW-X70 XAVC-L .mxf in FCPX without issues. Not only don't I optimize, FCPX doesn't even present it as an option with this codec. It took something like six months for the camera firmware 2.0 update and the FCPX update to handle the codec though. The issue was on Sony's side. You may need to contact JVC about where there are with FCPX support.

January 4th, 2016, 04:35 PM	#20
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions [QUOTE=Craig Seeman;1906281..... The issue was on Sony's side. ....[/QUOTE] I don't think it was Sony. Edius and I believe Premiere edited XAVC-L native files created by the X70 from day one. Firmware 2.0 is I believe QFHD paid upgrade. If you don't need this then the firmware for HD has not changed. So 3840x2160 XAVC-L at 24/25/30P the X70 equivalent of the FDRAX100 at XAVC-S. MXF wrapper instead of MOV. It is up to the NLE manufacturers to stay current and work with the camera manufactures not the other way around. ADOBE and Grass Valley seem to do a good job of this. If your NLE can't manage the files from the camera you want to use then change the NLE. They are all just tools. Ron Evans

January 4th, 2016, 04:40 PM	#21
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Re: XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions "FCPX doesn't even present it as an option with this codec." Are you saying that before the updates this was the case or is this the case after the updates? There is an internal difference between the Sony and the JVC codec. The Sony codec employs 3 Reference frames while the JVC employs 2 Reference frames. The Sony codec is more efficient but more difficult to decode. Looks like FCPX simply refuses to do a background transcode with the Sony codec. At least with the JVC codec it will do a background transcode. But, it does take time. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

January 4th, 2016, 10:13 PM	#22
David Dixon Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 495	Re: XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions Yes, FCPX does give the option of either editing the X70 XAVC-L clips natively or transcoding (in the background) to ProRes - unless you have old versions of the camera firmware or of FCPX - see below. No, it couldn't do this at first, nor could Vegas or Avid. I don't know (or care) if it was an Apple issue or a Sony one, but I do know that it took updates from both Sony and Apple to make the files able to be ingested/edited natively. And it required a further update from Apple to extend this same compatibility to files from the 4K upgrade. And older clips shot using the old firmware still will not import even after you update the firmware. Native HD import/editing has been available since June, 4K since September. No, the 2.0 firmware is not the same thing as the 4K upgrade, although the camera must be updated to 2.0 (free) for the 4K installer (not free) to work. And, when you import clips, the circular progress icon doesn't necessarily mean that transcoding is taking place. Those show up if you are transcoding, but they also show up if FCPX is just copying the native clips into your Library.

January 6th, 2016, 07:16 AM	#27
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: XAVC-L 4K and XAVC-L HD questions I have a FDR-AX1 and a FDR-AX100. When the X70 came out I demoed one for comparison with the two I have that of course use XAVC-S. I can confirm that Edius will edit native XAVC-L just fine but Vegas 12 will not edit XAVC-L. I think the latest Vegas13 will but I have not upgraded to Vegas13 as my main editor is EDIUS and I use Vegas mainly for audio mixing. EDIUS makes an effort to edit anything native and most of the time succeeds. Interesting times. Ron Evans