Real World FCP-X. at DVinfo.net

Bill Davis · July 18th, 2011, 02:24 PM

On other boards I frequent, the angst appears to be starting to drop away and the grown ups are starting to seriously discuss the massive and fundamental changes that have resulted from the ground up re-imagining of FCP-X.

And the discussion is FASCINATING.

The hidebound thinkers on both sides (my perjoritive view only) are still spouting either RUN AWAY or ITS THE SECOND COMING OF THE EDITING DIETY. But as the dust finally settles, most of us can see that both views are silly, particulary since even after weeks, most people are still barely getting their brains around such a fundamental new approach to editing software.

It's interesting that the people most encouraged by the new build are those who have come to a rapid understanding of the core distinctions. (database structures, trackless modes, clip connections as links between datapoints across media groupings rather than strictly linear tracks, etc, etc, etc.)

Clearly FCP-X is NOT a simple re-arrangement of what an NLE used to be.

I'm interested in hearing from those who are actively learning/using it here on DV Info as to what you've discovered that's caused you to "think different(ly)" about editing.

Is your brain stretching to re-imagine things? Are you getting knocked out of the discovery stream because this is simple TOO different?

Are you still seeing only what's NOT there? Or are you discovering new stuff that you've never considered before?

I'm truly interested.

Philip Lipetz · July 18th, 2011, 04:50 PM

I sense greatness once I get proper IO. The problem is that the review films are hardwired to old paradigms and actually hide what is in FCP by trying to explain how to do the old things within the old philosophy but not the new things within the new philosophy. I would love to do a crowd sourced book on that.

Craig Seeman · July 18th, 2011, 07:25 PM

I really like what I see in FCPX which makes me that much more impatient for the improvements it needs. The database metadata of clip organization has power that's fairly easy to see.

I think people are having a harder time grasping the timeline and how it can be powerful. Key is that it builds on clip relationships in time rather than strictly time based relationships. Clip Connections and Storylines, which are also connected, allows for some potentially very powerful vertical stacking. Key, and often overlooked, is that you can also move the connection points such that a clip or storyline can connect to any given clip and frame that lies directly beneath it (therefore overlapping in time). It reminds me of the NLE equivalent of a Nodal Compositor. It's never been done before in an NLE though. To use another analogy it's like 3D chess compared to old fashioned checkers.

David Parks · July 18th, 2011, 08:35 PM

I think Craig just hit on what I don't like about the magnetic timeline. Time base is what editing is all about. Timing,,to music, to narration ,,to a time guide,, . Maybe FCPX should keep the magnetic timeline for rough editing,,,where you can build the story,,,and then switch to a tracked based timeline for tightening everything up. I tried editing a music loop tonight and it was a huge pain. Since it wasn't my primary storyline I had to create a compound clip of the same music duplicated four times and then switch back and forth to edit the loop tighter. It took me much longer than if I had a dedicated audio track.

I don't like all of the clips moving around,, timeline management is important to me and the mag timeline is just too free form for me and the way I like working with clients, multiple versions, and editing to time.

I hope Apple adds some of the pro features back in and allow for more control over the timeline. Seriously, any experienced editor knows how to maintain audio sync and doesn't need help from a magnetic timeline.

There are some cool concepts here and there,,, but just let us turn the magnetic time line off on tracking and I think that would help.

Craig Seeman · July 18th, 2011, 11:03 PM

David if you put your music in the Primary Storyline, everything can lock to it clips can connect to the music beats as can Secondary Storylines. Key is that the music, which you want everything to lock to, is the primary storyline. Then you can build all sorts of composites and FX geared towards hitting the beats. Actually editing to music is one of FCPX strong points in my opinion. And if you needed to edit the music, Connected Clips and Secondary Storylines would remain locked to the beats no mater how you cut it.

Bill Davis · July 19th, 2011, 01:57 AM

Over and over again, I keep seeing the same thing.

People don't like FCP-X - because it doesn't work the way they THINK it should work - but when they start to understand how it actually works, they start to see that it does a LOT of what they thought it couldn't do - it just does it in a different way.

This is part of what's messing everyone up - being mentally stuck in how the existing FCP works.

That seems to be the biggest stopper to learning how the new one ACTUALLY works.

(this doesn't negate the things it doesn't do that it's older brother can do much better after the 10 years of solid incremental development - but that's another story.)

I'm starting to see that this reality is the source of quite a bit of the frustration out there.

FWIW.

Henrik Reach · July 19th, 2011, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Key, and often overlooked, is that you can also move the connection points such that a clip or storyline can connect to any given clip and frame that lies directly beneath it (therefore overlapping in time).

Silly question, but one that has cost me quite a lot of time already - how do I move the connection point? As in, I have two clips, one connected to the other, but it is connected to the start of the "main" clip, and I want to move the point (not any of the clips), so that the top one moves with the particular part that is important for sync...

So far I have just been working around, editing it in way too late so that it connects with the right part, then ripple'ing/moving the top clip so that it gets the right position. Very very cumbersome.

And I had the same problems as the other guy when making music video type shots. So used to video above the bar, sound below, but after a couple runs I figured out that the music was indeed the primary storyline on a project like that, which actually made a lot of sense, and helped things greatly. :p

Brian Drysdale · July 19th, 2011, 02:27 AM

I thought the major problem was that you couldn't use FCP7 projects and it can't interface with software that professional editors are using. The timetime editing itself looks quite similar to Sony Vegas.

Craig Seeman · July 19th, 2011, 02:54 AM

Hold down Command Option then click on the TOP of the clip or Storyline that has the Connection you want to move.

Example
Command Option click on TOP of the Connect Clip and it will change it's connection to the Primary Storyline at that location.

Instinct would lead you to believe you should click at the bottom where the connection point is but it's the TOP.

I have to keep repeating it because people will do this wrong a thousand times and not get it.

Henrik Reach · July 19th, 2011, 02:58 AM

Thanks a lot! That sounds exactly like what I've been looking for, and I have indeed tried many combinations of modifier keys and pulling at the connection-point itself. :D

The thing is, I haven't bashed FCP X for my inability to do this, as I have assumed it's pretty straightforward - I just haven't had the time to do any real tutorials etc. yet.

David Parks · July 19th, 2011, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

David if you put your music in the Primary Storyline, everything can lock to it clips can connect to the music beats as can Secondary Storylines. Key is that the music, which you want everything to lock to, is the primary storyline. Then you can build all sorts of composites and FX geared towards hitting the beats. Actually editing to music is one of FCPX strong points in my opinion. And if you needed to edit the music, Connected Clips and Secondary Storylines would remain locked to the beats no mater how you cut it.

I'm not editing TO the music, I'm editing the music. I'm editing to make a 30 second piece time to :60 seconds. And it has to sound right and seamless. You illustrated my point perfectly. I don't want to edit to the beat,,I don't want to connect to the Primary storyline.

Bill, As an editor I shouldn't have to adjust to the software this much,,,I'm hanging in there with this software,,but you will never to convince me it is reaslly powerful. Avid is way more flexible,,it doesn't think for you,,but allows many avenues for an edit workflow strategy.

Cheers.

John Paul Lusk · July 19th, 2011, 08:38 AM

I'm in total agreement with Bill in that people are just starting to get their head round it. The best example I can make is that early on a lot of 'experts' were telling people that Events=Projects and Projects=sequences

Once you get into it you see this is wrong Projects=projects withe the organisation of clips moved to a new idea called events. It needs to be treated as a whole new way of working without trying to relate it to the workflow in FCP7 as hard as that is

Brian Drysdale · July 19th, 2011, 09:21 AM

Are these events in anyway related to the use of the term "event" in Sony Vegas? There each event seems to be "each piece of media placed in the timeline", so I'm curious if the FCP X usage (events) refers to something similar e.g. a set of media joined together in the timeline.

Of course, Apple could've just gone their own way, but both NLE seem to be basically timeline editing.

Matt Davis · July 19th, 2011, 09:30 AM

I waited 2 years on a shift of Final Cut Pro to the way the market was going.

We need metadata of all types at ingest and beyond, we need text<-->voice, we need speed.

Now that we have FCP-X and CS5.5, I have come to appreciate FCP7 more. I love it.

But... FCP-X is so fast in finding and previewing stuff. It's clumsy in places (if a few clips are over another set of clips, why can't you do a fade transition? Why are video transitions still glued to audio transitions?) but its heart is in the right place.

But if a cameraman hands over a card, I can get a good glimpse of what's usable with skimming.

What we need are the third parties to mend all of FCP-X's ills.

The 'magic' chromakey and colour correction plugins are baked to amateur perfection, but I just want to apply a neutral look and bend it. Yet the half baked controls lack the precision and the control of something like Colorista (the built-in controls do the same thing as the FCP 3-Way colour corrector in that the toe is connected to the ear rather than being independent). And again, the 'Key' plugin is eager to please, but it lacks subtlety and follow-through. No subtlety, no pixel-peeping control to compensate for electronic sharpening, light wrap and DCT artefacts.

On and on through the feature set, it's a good elevation of iMovie to a more controllable level. I do believe I will be editing with this in a year's time.

Just not now. If professional editors are spending time trying to work out the metaphor, then it's not a pro package. So many times, I've hit a brick wall with the interface suggesting a situation and the UI not allowing me to do it. You can't turn to a client and say 'Computer Says No' and still proffer an invoice.

Premiere's an interesting 'alternate reality SciFi FCP5' that my PC clients use, FCP7 is still a monster editing program that's better than I realised, Avid gave me scars, and I won't abandon Mac hardware again, so I'll dilute my skills with CS5.5, FCP7 and FCP-X.

We're not talking 3 brands of piano here, it's Piano, Harpsichord and Rhodes. Big difference, small window.

Thanks, Jobs. Thanks Ubilos. Way to go. Strike 2.

Andreas Schmidt · July 19th, 2011, 09:53 AM

Well, after using FCPX since its release I have to say that I really overall like the application very much. I cannot see myself going back to FCP 6 (which I used so far) . I don't have the same (and very well known) complaints that the "pros" have about the app.

But besides the bugs (I think there is definitely some memory leak, after a while working I have to logout and login again) and some other stuff my major complain is about the "missing" sound editing features. As everyone knows - the sound is 80% of the experience and with FCPX it is simply impossible to make a good sound mix. And if you export the sound and edit it in another app you have the issue with changes on the timeline. I really hope Apple offers a solution for this soonish.

July 18th, 2011, 02:24 PM	#1
Bill Davis Trustee Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ 85260 Posts: 1,538	Real World FCP-X. On other boards I frequent, the angst appears to be starting to drop away and the grown ups are starting to seriously discuss the massive and fundamental changes that have resulted from the ground up re-imagining of FCP-X. And the discussion is FASCINATING. The hidebound thinkers on both sides (my perjoritive view only) are still spouting either RUN AWAY or ITS THE SECOND COMING OF THE EDITING DIETY. But as the dust finally settles, most of us can see that both views are silly, particulary since even after weeks, most people are still barely getting their brains around such a fundamental new approach to editing software. It's interesting that the people most encouraged by the new build are those who have come to a rapid understanding of the core distinctions. (database structures, trackless modes, clip connections as links between datapoints across media groupings rather than strictly linear tracks, etc, etc, etc.) Clearly FCP-X is NOT a simple re-arrangement of what an NLE used to be. I'm interested in hearing from those who are actively learning/using it here on DV Info as to what you've discovered that's caused you to "think different(ly)" about editing. Is your brain stretching to re-imagine things? Are you getting knocked out of the discovery stream because this is simple TOO different? Are you still seeing only what's NOT there? Or are you discovering new stuff that you've never considered before? I'm truly interested. __________________ Classroom editing instructor? Check out www.starteditingnow.com Turnkey editor training content including licensed training footage for classroom use.

July 18th, 2011, 04:50 PM	#2
Philip Lipetz Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 273	Re: Real World FCP-X. I sense greatness once I get proper IO. The problem is that the review films are hardwired to old paradigms and actually hide what is in FCP by trying to explain how to do the old things within the old philosophy but not the new things within the new philosophy. I would love to do a crowd sourced book on that.

July 18th, 2011, 07:25 PM	#3
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Real World FCP-X. I really like what I see in FCPX which makes me that much more impatient for the improvements it needs. The database metadata of clip organization has power that's fairly easy to see. I think people are having a harder time grasping the timeline and how it can be powerful. Key is that it builds on clip relationships in time rather than strictly time based relationships. Clip Connections and Storylines, which are also connected, allows for some potentially very powerful vertical stacking. Key, and often overlooked, is that you can also move the connection points such that a clip or storyline can connect to any given clip and frame that lies directly beneath it (therefore overlapping in time). It reminds me of the NLE equivalent of a Nodal Compositor. It's never been done before in an NLE though. To use another analogy it's like 3D chess compared to old fashioned checkers.

July 18th, 2011, 08:35 PM	#4
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Re: Real World FCP-X. I think Craig just hit on what I don't like about the magnetic timeline. Time base is what editing is all about. Timing,,to music, to narration ,,to a time guide,, . Maybe FCPX should keep the magnetic timeline for rough editing,,,where you can build the story,,,and then switch to a tracked based timeline for tightening everything up. I tried editing a music loop tonight and it was a huge pain. Since it wasn't my primary storyline I had to create a compound clip of the same music duplicated four times and then switch back and forth to edit the loop tighter. It took me much longer than if I had a dedicated audio track. I don't like all of the clips moving around,, timeline management is important to me and the mag timeline is just too free form for me and the way I like working with clients, multiple versions, and editing to time. I hope Apple adds some of the pro features back in and allow for more control over the timeline. Seriously, any experienced editor knows how to maintain audio sync and doesn't need help from a magnetic timeline. There are some cool concepts here and there,,, but just let us turn the magnetic time line off on tracking and I think that would help. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

July 18th, 2011, 11:03 PM	#5
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Real World FCP-X. David if you put your music in the Primary Storyline, everything can lock to it clips can connect to the music beats as can Secondary Storylines. Key is that the music, which you want everything to lock to, is the primary storyline. Then you can build all sorts of composites and FX geared towards hitting the beats. Actually editing to music is one of FCPX strong points in my opinion. And if you needed to edit the music, Connected Clips and Secondary Storylines would remain locked to the beats no mater how you cut it.

July 19th, 2011, 01:57 AM	#6
Bill Davis Trustee Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ 85260 Posts: 1,538	Re: Real World FCP-X. Over and over again, I keep seeing the same thing. People don't like FCP-X - because it doesn't work the way they THINK it should work - but when they start to understand how it actually works, they start to see that it does a LOT of what they thought it couldn't do - it just does it in a different way. This is part of what's messing everyone up - being mentally stuck in how the existing FCP works. That seems to be the biggest stopper to learning how the new one ACTUALLY works. (this doesn't negate the things it doesn't do that it's older brother can do much better after the 10 years of solid incremental development - but that's another story.) I'm starting to see that this reality is the source of quite a bit of the frustration out there. FWIW. __________________ Classroom editing instructor? Check out www.starteditingnow.com Turnkey editor training content including licensed training footage for classroom use.

July 19th, 2011, 02:27 AM	#8
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Real World FCP-X. I thought the major problem was that you couldn't use FCP7 projects and it can't interface with software that professional editors are using. The timetime editing itself looks quite similar to Sony Vegas.

July 19th, 2011, 02:54 AM	#9
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Real World FCP-X. Hold down Command Option then click on the TOP of the clip or Storyline that has the Connection you want to move. Example Command Option click on TOP of the Connect Clip and it will change it's connection to the Primary Storyline at that location. Instinct would lead you to believe you should click at the bottom where the connection point is but it's the TOP. I have to keep repeating it because people will do this wrong a thousand times and not get it.

July 19th, 2011, 02:58 AM	#10
Henrik Reach Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Halden Posts: 106	Re: Real World FCP-X. Thanks a lot! That sounds exactly like what I've been looking for, and I have indeed tried many combinations of modifier keys and pulling at the connection-point itself. :D The thing is, I haven't bashed FCP X for my inability to do this, as I have assumed it's pretty straightforward - I just haven't had the time to do any real tutorials etc. yet.

July 19th, 2011, 08:38 AM	#12
John Paul Lusk Tourist Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Dumbarton, Scotland Posts: 4	Re: Real World FCP-X. I'm in total agreement with Bill in that people are just starting to get their head round it. The best example I can make is that early on a lot of 'experts' were telling people that Events=Projects and Projects=sequences Once you get into it you see this is wrong Projects=projects withe the organisation of clips moved to a new idea called events. It needs to be treated as a whole new way of working without trying to relate it to the workflow in FCP7 as hard as that is

July 19th, 2011, 09:21 AM	#13
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Real World FCP-X. Are these events in anyway related to the use of the term "event" in Sony Vegas? There each event seems to be "each piece of media placed in the timeline", so I'm curious if the FCP X usage (events) refers to something similar e.g. a set of media joined together in the timeline. Of course, Apple could've just gone their own way, but both NLE seem to be basically timeline editing.

July 19th, 2011, 09:30 AM	#14
Matt Davis Trustee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 1,562	Re: Real World FCP-X. I waited 2 years on a shift of Final Cut Pro to the way the market was going. We need metadata of all types at ingest and beyond, we need text<-->voice, we need speed. Now that we have FCP-X and CS5.5, I have come to appreciate FCP7 more. I love it. But... FCP-X is so fast in finding and previewing stuff. It's clumsy in places (if a few clips are over another set of clips, why can't you do a fade transition? Why are video transitions still glued to audio transitions?) but its heart is in the right place. But if a cameraman hands over a card, I can get a good glimpse of what's usable with skimming. What we need are the third parties to mend all of FCP-X's ills. The 'magic' chromakey and colour correction plugins are baked to amateur perfection, but I just want to apply a neutral look and bend it. Yet the half baked controls lack the precision and the control of something like Colorista (the built-in controls do the same thing as the FCP 3-Way colour corrector in that the toe is connected to the ear rather than being independent). And again, the 'Key' plugin is eager to please, but it lacks subtlety and follow-through. No subtlety, no pixel-peeping control to compensate for electronic sharpening, light wrap and DCT artefacts. On and on through the feature set, it's a good elevation of iMovie to a more controllable level. I do believe I will be editing with this in a year's time. Just not now. If professional editors are spending time trying to work out the metaphor, then it's not a pro package. So many times, I've hit a brick wall with the interface suggesting a situation and the UI not allowing me to do it. You can't turn to a client and say 'Computer Says No' and still proffer an invoice. Premiere's an interesting 'alternate reality SciFi FCP5' that my PC clients use, FCP7 is still a monster editing program that's better than I realised, Avid gave me scars, and I won't abandon Mac hardware again, so I'll dilute my skills with CS5.5, FCP7 and FCP-X. We're not talking 3 brands of piano here, it's Piano, Harpsichord and Rhodes. Big difference, small window. Thanks, Jobs. Thanks Ubilos. Way to go. Strike 2. __________________ Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6

July 19th, 2011, 09:53 AM	#15
Andreas Schmidt Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Nuremberg, Germany Posts: 43	Re: Real World FCP-X. Well, after using FCPX since its release I have to say that I really overall like the application very much. I cannot see myself going back to FCP 6 (which I used so far) . I don't have the same (and very well known) complaints that the "pros" have about the app. But besides the bugs (I think there is definitely some memory leak, after a while working I have to logout and login again) and some other stuff my major complain is about the "missing" sound editing features. As everyone knows - the sound is 80% of the experience and with FCPX it is simply impossible to make a good sound mix. And if you export the sound and edit it in another app you have the issue with changes on the timeline. I really hope Apple offers a solution for this soonish.