Need Input on Camera/Recorder Combo

[Matt Rouch]

Hi folks. I'm a college professor in the midwest who is going to shoot a short (about 12 minutes) movie this fall, and a longer one next year. I've made movies for 25 years, so I know how to put one together (although I'm rusty b/c I haven't done one since 2003)

Anyway, I want the best HD image quality I can get with what's available to me, and I was thinking about the HyperDeck Shuttle from Black Magic to help. Here's my situation. I have my choice of

Panasonic AG-HPX 500
JVC GY HD-100
Sony HVR-HD 1000
Several Canon DSLRs

I know the Panasonic would seem to be the obvious choice. It's the most expensive, has a $6k zoom and records on P2. If I used it, I doubt the HyperLink Shuttle would improve the quality to the point of being worthwhile (maybe I'm wrong about that). The problem is limited availability. It's one of our studio cameras and would likely only be available on Saturdays. Plus, it's the ONLY one of the studio cameras that can be removed from the studio.

The JVC GY HD-100 would be available any time I wanted, but it's limited to 720P and I don't think had an HDMI output, though it did have component video so something like the intensity might work.

The Sony HVR-HD 1000 is the one camcorder I can not only get any time I want, but as many as I want, though if I was going to go multicam I'd have to have Shuttle for each one and the money for each one is going to have to come, at least initially, from my pocket.

In addition, we have a number of DSLRs that output video, like the Canon 7d. I have seen some excellent video quality from DLSRs, but I don't know much about them; never used them for video.

Some specific questions. First, the cost of the SSD cards. B&H, which carries the Shuttle, advertised a 250 GB card to go with it that was almost 500 dollars. I've seen them for less than half that price so I'm wondering what the deal is. Also, approximately how much uncompressed 1080i video could you shoot with a card that size? By my calculations it's only about 27-28 minutes.

How do you store footage? Will it store on a hard drive? Can you even edit uncompressed footage of a hard drive? At those data sizes I thought even firewire 800 would probably be too slow. That's okay, as long as you can put the footage back on a card to edit, but can you do that? I want to fill up a card or two, dump it on a hard drive, then fill those cards up again. Is that practical?

Finally, from someone who has used it, is it worth it? I know that's relative, but let's say in the case of the Sony HD 1000, which is a "prosumer" camcorder, does it provide a substantial improvement in picture quality? How about compared to P2? And have any of you used it with a DSLR?

Just wanted input. Thanks.

[Chris Barcellos]

HDMi output on DSLRs is not an improvement on native.

[Ric Marrty]

You mean that getting prores or avid dnx is not better than avchd?

rycar_m

[Matt Rouch]

Allright, I'll answer my own questions for anyone who might be interested. I bought the Hyperdeck and a 240 gB SSD and figured it all out.

I tested it on a Sony HDV-HR 1000U. Tapped the HDMI input.

The Hyperdeck does as advertised. However, don't think a 1K camera is going to suddenly look like a 50K camera. Or even a 5K camera. The first generation gain over HDV is minimal except in a few situations. Surprised? So was I. But I don't mean to say there was no difference or that the difference wasn't worth the effort. It would depend on the production.

Where the uncompressed video really shines, not surprisingly, is in where there is ANY kind of further processing. Especially color correction. It just seems to retain amazing detail detail as color becomes more pleasing to look at.

But if you're not planning to do any of that, it's a waste of time (unless you're doing network-level stuff) and adds a needless layer of complication.

But technically, it's as simple as you thought it was, and I presumed it was:

1. You MUST format the SSD HFS+
2. Connect the HyperDeck Shuttle to your camera via HDMI or SDI
3. Turn on the Hyperdeck (first) and stick the SSD in it.

RECORD.

That simple. However, be aware:

1. My computer was never able to detect the SSD in the Shuttle via USB. I had to use the firewire 800 port and have a stand-alone SSD port/dock.

2. Only USB 3.0, Thunderbolt ports or RAID arrays (via a PCIe tower card) will be able to play the uncompressed video in real time (as far as I understand, but I think that's correct) and it MUST be off the SSD or RAID. Internal SATA, in spite of incredible speed, isn't fast enough.

What I've done is taken the footage and converted into Apple ProRes HQ. That retains 98-99 percent of the quality while reducing the file size by a factor of 10 (e.g.: 10 percent of original size). Then, I can edit in FCP with relatively few problems.

I"m actually pretty happy with it and thought you guys might like to know. And yes, I'm aware of the Atomos Ninja and that it could do ProRes direct, but it was a budget issue. Besides, ya gotta admit, kinda cool having uncompressed source footage.

[Matt Rouch]

Oh, BTW, simple stuff. the SDD shows up on the desktop like any other hard drive. And I've imported the uncompressed files into numerous presets from Both Premiere and FCP. Both aps ALWAYS seem to recognize the files, no problem, even when imported into SD projects. So no problems there.

Editing is another issue, I fully realize, because of the file size/bandwidth issue and, no, they won't play back in real time right now. Not possible. This is because the SSD connects to my 'puter via USB 2.0 (60 MBps vs the 160 minimum MBps I Need). But if I convert to Apple ProRes, I'm set

[Matt Rouch]

Just an update. Comparing HDV and uncompressed footage today, and zooming in on certain sections of the picture, the difference is greater than I originally thought it was. The HDV footage looks downright splotchy by comparison. For example, large sections of the blue sky have exactly the same R-G-B values in HDV, whereas with the uncompressed footage, that same sky every pixel varies a bit on at least one of the R-G-B values.

I'll keep you updated.

[Matt Rouch]

Okay, I've now been using the Hyperdeck Shuttle for about a month. Some observations:

You can do very, very clean color correction. In fact, that's where I found uncompressed video really shines -- if there is ANY kind of post-production processing. When I color correct with HDV footage, it somehow always looks cheaper. Better only because it's color corrected, but the basic technical quality of the video looks like it was shot on a cheap consumer HDV camcorder.

The uncompressed footage from the Hyperdeck Shuttle, on the other hand, simply looks better all around. There are much more subtle gradations of color, and it captures more accurate color from the get-go. I can't see any degradation in technical quality at all.

As far as chroma key, there's another area where it really shines. There is virtually no fringing around the edges, and the differences between uncompressed and HDV are quite obvious -- I think even obvious to the untrained eye.

In compositing I can't really tell yet. I did do a "monster face" comparison in After Effects and saw relatively little difference in terms of what you'd be checking for there.

As far as playing it, I can't quite get real time playback, but I can get somewhat close with a firewire 800 connected to the SSD dock. Probably not good enough to edit (it freezes-plays-freezes-jumps two seconds ahead and continues playing, etc) but I can color correct uncompressed footage and then convert to Pro Res for actual editing.

The biggest drawback is the amount of disc space. My OCZ 240 gig only holds about 22 minutes and has to be transferred. Hopefully SSDs will get cheaper.

So far, no technical problems at all. It does what it says it does. I'm happy with it. Good purchase.

[Paul Kapp]

Originally Posted by Matt Rouch

Allright, I'll answer my own questions for anyone who might be interested. I bought the Hyperdeck and a 240 gB SSD and figured it all out.

I tested it on a Sony HDV-HR 1000U. Tapped the HDMI input.

The Hyperdeck does as advertised. However, don't think a 1K camera is going to suddenly look like a 50K camera. Or even a 5K camera. The first generation gain over HDV is minimal except in a few situations. Surprised? So was I. But I don't mean to say there was no difference or that the difference wasn't worth the effort. It would depend on the production.

Where the uncompressed video really shines, not surprisingly, is in where there is ANY kind of further processing. Especially color correction. It just seems to retain amazing detail detail as color becomes more pleasing to look at.

But if you're not planning to do any of that, it's a waste of time (unless you're doing network-level stuff) and adds a needless layer of complication.

But technically, it's as simple as you thought it was, and I presumed it was:

1. You MUST format the SSD HFS+
2. Connect the HyperDeck Shuttle to your camera via HDMI or SDI
3. Turn on the Hyperdeck (first) and stick the SSD in it.

RECORD.

That simple. However, be aware:

1. My computer was never able to detect the SSD in the Shuttle via USB. I had to use the firewire 800 port and have a stand-alone SSD port/dock.

2. Only USB 3.0, Thunderbolt ports or RAID arrays (via a PCIe tower card) will be able to play the uncompressed video in real time (as far as I understand, but I think that's correct) and it MUST be off the SSD or RAID. Internal SATA, in spite of incredible speed, isn't fast enough.

What I've done is taken the footage and converted into Apple ProRes HQ. That retains 98-99 percent of the quality while reducing the file size by a factor of 10 (e.g.: 10 percent of original size). Then, I can edit in FCP with relatively few problems.

I"m actually pretty happy with it and thought you guys might like to know. And yes, I'm aware of the Atomos Ninja and that it could do ProRes direct, but it was a budget issue. Besides, ya gotta admit, kinda cool having uncompressed source footage.

I have 2 500 Gb Seagate SATA II drives in RAID 0, paid $50 each for them and they play back the Shuttles Full HD 30p files perfectly, even mixing effects in realtime(with Windows 7, Premiere 5.5 x64 and an NVidea GTX 470)

[Matt Rouch]

I'll have to give that a try. I'm using a Mac Powerbook, but it's about two years old so it doesn't have a Thunderbolt port. I know firewire 800 can't handle it simply because the max data rate is 100 MB/sec (and 1080i at 4:2:2 is about 158).

Are these internal drives?

[Paul Kapp]

Yes internal SATA II drives with onboard Intel RAID. External via a controller or eSATA should work.