Cant decide should i go tapeless.

Vincent Oliver · March 25th, 2009, 12:02 AM

I use a Sony EX3. Have also been working on a 120 minute DVD. Shot hours of footage (no it can't be footage anymore) - shot hours of material. Transferred the files to my hard drive using ClipBrowser (free downloadable software from Sony). Then used ClipBrowser to edit out the takes I didn't want. Finally opened the clips directly into Premierre and began compiling the DVD.

Backed up all the HD material on a removable hard drive.

Project shot and edited ready for replication - 3 days

Transcend SD cards (X6) formatted and ready to go for the next project

March 25th, 2009, 03:56 AM

Vince - was that fact that it was an HD project necessary and a deal breaker or side issue for your client? I ask as I was gutted to find the EX3 wouldn't do SD yesterday, so I left the showroom empty handed. I don't NEED HD (and associated longer render time, storage issues. more SxS etc) for ALL projects - esp bread and butter stuff.

How are you delivering the footage (for it is that LOL) to your client so they can use clips in their Xmas compilation next year or whatever?

Anyone any thoughts on these Holdan Limited - Focus Enhancements FS-5 Portable DTE Recorder

BD (not a Luddite - honest)

Vincent Oliver · March 25th, 2009, 04:02 AM

The video was shot in HD and delivered in SD.

You are right the EX3 doesn't have a native SD format, and this has caused me a lot of headaches. However, using Premiere CS3 I start a SD project then import the HD footage into the timeline and then right click on the footage and select scale to size, it works - no problem. YOu can also export any clip from within ClipBrowser to an SD avi file, these work well too.

I am still finding better ways to do things every day, but I would have liked a native SD setting too.

April 10th, 2009, 05:25 PM

I see no other solution...it has to be EX3 for longevity and price. Finance application is in :-)

So my latest thoughts...can anyone with the kit confirm/deny them to be realistic please?

To 'do' SD - shoot 720P (only) & use SDI out employing downconvert and also taking TC out and play off the SxS card into Avid the old fashioned way, in real time. But how do I control the 'deck' though as I will have no firewire or RS232 timecode based capture control? I'll therefore have to ingest with the 'deck disabled' - so how would I ever re-capture media to an archived project?

This HDSDI/SD output is proper full res right - as good as Digi Beta maybe? I wonder what specific 'conventional' res it is as it is decoded MPEG long GOP????

To record long segments I plan to use my Avid laptop capturing in real time the HDV output by firewire. This currently works great for DV SD but as there is no SD output available...

If I get the Sony HDD, can I then plug that into my Avid and start editing?

Big questions, big investment - many apologies!

Thanks for any advice/pointers.

BD

April 10th, 2009, 06:20 PM

It's all gone haywire! I just came across a new Panasonic. ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...P_brochure.pdf

Yes its P2, but it looks like its a proper shoulder mount camera and will do 1920x1080 4:2:2 ten bit >shock<. $10k INC what looks like a proper lens (one in which you can reach over the lens for the zoom demand whilst racking focus with a few spare fingers of the SAME left hand - IMPOSSIBLE on an EX3).

Drawback - currently seems to be only flavours of NTSC's legacy odd partial frame rates...

BD

Vincent Oliver · April 11th, 2009, 12:22 AM

The Panasonic does look impresive and the specs look good too. The camera only has a 1/3 size sensor whereas the Sony EX3 has a 1/2 sensor. Look at the cost of PS2 cards and then consider that you can use SD cards in the Sony for a fraction of the price (Sony's own SXS cards are also expensive).

The Sony has the ability to rack focus and zoom, together with exposure, white balance compensation amongst a few other definable functions all at the touch of a button. Just set up your A shot and save, then set up the B shot with zoom, focus, exposure etc. and save. Now press the A button and the camera sets up your saved shot, press the B button and the camera jumps to your B settings. You can define the speed, and how the camera applies the transition.

In favour of the Panasonic, Sony handheld shooting is dreadful, I am now using a tripod or monopod for most of my work.

Would I buy the Sony or Panasonic today? I would still opt for the Sony.

April 11th, 2009, 03:47 AM

Do you know an SxS to SD adaptor card supplier in UK Vince? Have you tried real time downconvert real time ingest?

BD

Vincent Oliver · April 11th, 2009, 05:49 AM

I use Kensington 7 in 1 adaptors these fit in the EX3 no problem. The adaptors can be purchased from Amazon UK at about £14 each, I use Transcend 16gb cards (class 6), again these can be purchased from Amazon UK.

Yes, I have tried most ways to bring in video clips, generally I use the ClipBrowser and have that convert the files into SD avi clips. Not ideal, but I am still looking for the best solution. Having said that, there is nothing much wrong with the quality of footage. I shot a sequence on my Canon XH A1 in SD and compared it to the same footage shot on the EX3 in HD and downconverted to SD and the Sony was better.

April 11th, 2009, 06:04 AM

Thx Vince - appreciate your input as have been where I am now and this saves me much family time!

Appreciate not all have SDI. Do you have SDI in on your edit kit - did you try it?

BD

Vincent Oliver · April 11th, 2009, 07:40 AM

Yes, I can use my Matrox RT X2 card to capture SDi. The quality isn't brilliant, certainly no better than just importing a HD clip straight into a SD timeline and then selecting scale to fit (Premiere CS3).

Please feel free to use my full name - Vincent.

April 12th, 2009, 03:10 AM

Ok - but is that a good 'no render' longform workflow - long GOP and real time downconvert/resize? Then add colour correction, captions etc?? Sorry know little about Premiere. Cheers BD

Vincent Oliver · April 12th, 2009, 04:00 AM

The Matrox card renders everything as you bring it in. Colour corrections and Chromakey Green screen etc. are also in real time. i.e. instant.

I am in the middle of a DVD project at the moment so have not had much time to experiment further, or in other words if I find a better soluttion then I would have to start the entire project again so I am not looking for the ultimate solution just yet, but I will find it.

Premiere is excellent, it is worth downloading a 30 day trial, but to get the best results then you will need to invest in a good graphics/render card - these are not cheap.

April 12th, 2009, 05:32 AM

Thanks so much for your help here - really tough decisions! I just decided on the Panasonic AG-HPX301E though. Will do native SD DV/DVCPro and its top notch AVC I format is available for top quality HD jobs. Crucialy it will edit really well on Avid that isnt the latest all singing all dancing 8Gb RAM, 64bit latest hardware/software.

I intend offloading IN CAM to SDHC 32Gb for it has an USB socket and the P2 cards are soooooooverpriced.

Thx again for your input.

BD

Vincent Oliver · April 12th, 2009, 05:51 AM

I am sure you will be delighted with the Panasonic, at the end of the day they all produced excellent results. The creative process is in the hands of the individual.

Good luck with it all.

March 25th, 2009, 12:02 AM	#46
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	I use a Sony EX3. Have also been working on a 120 minute DVD. Shot hours of footage (no it can't be footage anymore) - shot hours of material. Transferred the files to my hard drive using ClipBrowser (free downloadable software from Sony). Then used ClipBrowser to edit out the takes I didn't want. Finally opened the clips directly into Premierre and began compiling the DVD. Backed up all the HD material on a removable hard drive. Project shot and edited ready for replication - 3 days Transcend SD cards (X6) formatted and ready to go for the next project __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

March 25th, 2009, 03:56 AM	#47
Ben Jones Posts: n/a	Vince - was that fact that it was an HD project necessary and a deal breaker or side issue for your client? I ask as I was gutted to find the EX3 wouldn't do SD yesterday, so I left the showroom empty handed. I don't NEED HD (and associated longer render time, storage issues. more SxS etc) for ALL projects - esp bread and butter stuff. How are you delivering the footage (for it is that LOL) to your client so they can use clips in their Xmas compilation next year or whatever? Anyone any thoughts on these Holdan Limited - Focus Enhancements FS-5 Portable DTE Recorder BD (not a Luddite - honest) Last edited by Ben Jones; March 25th, 2009 at 03:58 AM. Reason: add link

March 25th, 2009, 04:02 AM	#48
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	The video was shot in HD and delivered in SD. You are right the EX3 doesn't have a native SD format, and this has caused me a lot of headaches. However, using Premiere CS3 I start a SD project then import the HD footage into the timeline and then right click on the footage and select scale to size, it works - no problem. YOu can also export any clip from within ClipBrowser to an SD avi file, these work well too. I am still finding better ways to do things every day, but I would have liked a native SD setting too. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

April 11th, 2009, 12:22 AM	#51
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	The Panasonic does look impresive and the specs look good too. The camera only has a 1/3 size sensor whereas the Sony EX3 has a 1/2 sensor. Look at the cost of PS2 cards and then consider that you can use SD cards in the Sony for a fraction of the price (Sony's own SXS cards are also expensive). The Sony has the ability to rack focus and zoom, together with exposure, white balance compensation amongst a few other definable functions all at the touch of a button. Just set up your A shot and save, then set up the B shot with zoom, focus, exposure etc. and save. Now press the A button and the camera sets up your saved shot, press the B button and the camera jumps to your B settings. You can define the speed, and how the camera applies the transition. In favour of the Panasonic, Sony handheld shooting is dreadful, I am now using a tripod or monopod for most of my work. Would I buy the Sony or Panasonic today? I would still opt for the Sony. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

April 11th, 2009, 05:49 AM	#53
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	I use Kensington 7 in 1 adaptors these fit in the EX3 no problem. The adaptors can be purchased from Amazon UK at about £14 each, I use Transcend 16gb cards (class 6), again these can be purchased from Amazon UK. Yes, I have tried most ways to bring in video clips, generally I use the ClipBrowser and have that convert the files into SD avi clips. Not ideal, but I am still looking for the best solution. Having said that, there is nothing much wrong with the quality of footage. I shot a sequence on my Canon XH A1 in SD and compared it to the same footage shot on the EX3 in HD and downconverted to SD and the Sony was better. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

April 10th, 2009, 05:25 PM	#49
Ben Jones Posts: n/a	I see no other solution...it has to be EX3 for longevity and price. Finance application is in :-) So my latest thoughts...can anyone with the kit confirm/deny them to be realistic please? To 'do' SD - shoot 720P (only) & use SDI out employing downconvert and also taking TC out and play off the SxS card into Avid the old fashioned way, in real time. But how do I control the 'deck' though as I will have no firewire or RS232 timecode based capture control? I'll therefore have to ingest with the 'deck disabled' - so how would I ever re-capture media to an archived project? This HDSDI/SD output is proper full res right - as good as Digi Beta maybe? I wonder what specific 'conventional' res it is as it is decoded MPEG long GOP???? To record long segments I plan to use my Avid laptop capturing in real time the HDV output by firewire. This currently works great for DV SD but as there is no SD output available... If I get the Sony HDD, can I then plug that into my Avid and start editing? Big questions, big investment - many apologies! Thanks for any advice/pointers. BD

April 10th, 2009, 06:20 PM	#50
Ben Jones Posts: n/a	It's all gone haywire! I just came across a new Panasonic. ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...P_brochure.pdf Yes its P2, but it looks like its a proper shoulder mount camera and will do 1920x1080 4:2:2 ten bit >shock<. $10k INC what looks like a proper lens (one in which you can reach over the lens for the zoom demand whilst racking focus with a few spare fingers of the SAME left hand - IMPOSSIBLE on an EX3). Drawback - currently seems to be only flavours of NTSC's legacy odd partial frame rates... BD

April 11th, 2009, 03:47 AM	#52
Ben Jones Posts: n/a	Do you know an SxS to SD adaptor card supplier in UK Vince? Have you tried real time downconvert real time ingest? BD

April 11th, 2009, 06:04 AM	#54
Ben Jones Posts: n/a	Thx Vince - appreciate your input as have been where I am now and this saves me much family time! Appreciate not all have SDI. Do you have SDI in on your edit kit - did you try it? BD

April 11th, 2009, 07:40 AM	#55
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Yes, I can use my Matrox RT X2 card to capture SDi. The quality isn't brilliant, certainly no better than just importing a HD clip straight into a SD timeline and then selecting scale to fit (Premiere CS3). Please feel free to use my full name - Vincent. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

April 12th, 2009, 03:10 AM	#56
Ben Jones Posts: n/a	Ok - but is that a good 'no render' longform workflow - long GOP and real time downconvert/resize? Then add colour correction, captions etc?? Sorry know little about Premiere. Cheers BD

April 12th, 2009, 04:00 AM	#57
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	The Matrox card renders everything as you bring it in. Colour corrections and Chromakey Green screen etc. are also in real time. i.e. instant. I am in the middle of a DVD project at the moment so have not had much time to experiment further, or in other words if I find a better soluttion then I would have to start the entire project again so I am not looking for the ultimate solution just yet, but I will find it. Premiere is excellent, it is worth downloading a 30 day trial, but to get the best results then you will need to invest in a good graphics/render card - these are not cheap. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

April 12th, 2009, 05:32 AM	#58
Ben Jones Posts: n/a	Thanks so much for your help here - really tough decisions! I just decided on the Panasonic AG-HPX301E though. Will do native SD DV/DVCPro and its top notch AVC I format is available for top quality HD jobs. Crucialy it will edit really well on Avid that isnt the latest all singing all dancing 8Gb RAM, 64bit latest hardware/software. I intend offloading IN CAM to SDHC 32Gb for it has an USB socket and the P2 cards are soooooooverpriced. Thx again for your input. BD

April 12th, 2009, 05:51 AM	#59
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	I am sure you will be delighted with the Panasonic, at the end of the day they all produced excellent results. The creative process is in the hands of the individual. Good luck with it all. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes