Why aren't there any affordable tapeless devices?

[Denis Danatzko]

Originally Posted by George Kroonder

...Why would even you want a solid state or disk recorder?...

George/

I have an HVX and an nNovia disk recorder (similar, though bigger and more limited than the Firestor), and I absolutely love it. It makes some jobs SOOOO much easier and faster. For example, I have a performance shoot coming up in a couple of weeks. It will be 2 performances on the same day, each about 90 mins and is to be shot in DV (unless nNovia's new DV-thru-DVCPROHD model is delivered by then). That would mean an absolute minimum of 3 tapes, and probably 4. With the nNovia, capture time is eliminated...that's 4 hours of my time saved, which also translates into either getting the final product to the client approximately 1 day sooner, or extra time editing.

It's also come in handy for numerous other shoots, where fast-paced action occurs every few seconds, but too frequently to deal with changing tapes, (think boxing match, karate tournament, or rodeo, where new action starts after only about 1 minute (or less); instead, I press a button to change to the next bin.

For my purposes, that thing is better than sliced bread, (but, then, I've always been pretty handy with a good, sharp knife).

[Jim Andrada]

Originally Posted by Robert M Wright

There must not be a very large market for external tapeless recording devices. If there was, it would be cheap as the dickens (well under $100) to mass produce a (small and energy efficient) device, that uses removable flash memory, with functionality akin to that of a Firestore. (So long as it's simply a recording device, not an encoder) the engineering is simple enough for a college student to do as a class project.

Well, I'm not so sure it's a class project for a 1st year engineering student.

Would you like it to start/stop recording when you push the button on the camera (well, actually a lot of different cameras that all have some unique characteristics), have a pre-roll buffer, recover from errors without losing your data, etc etc etc.

Sort of a rule of thumb in computer development is that writing the code to perform the function is maybe 10% to 20% of the job, making it work when something goes wrong is maybe 80% to 90%. Do you really think that every write to a CF card is executed without some (usually recoverable) error? Or that there aren't errors on the firewire that have to be recovered from? Noise that has to be dealt with and may differ from camera to camera? etc etc etc.

And it is a rather small market.

[George Kroonder]

Originally Posted by Denis Danatzko

For my purposes, that thing is better than sliced bread, (but, then, I've always been pretty handy with a good, sharp knife).

Hi Denis,

Actually I'm with you on that one.

I was just asking Giroud Francois why he would want one and possibly find out why it is of so little value to him.

George/

[E.J. Sadler]

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

Well, I'm not so sure it's a class project for a 1st year engineering student.

Would you like it to start/stop recording when you push the button on the camera (well, actually a lot of different cameras that all have some unique characteristics), have a pre-roll buffer, recover from errors without losing your data, etc etc etc.

Sort of a rule of thumb in computer development is that writing the code to perform the function is maybe 10% to 20% of the job, making it work when something goes wrong is maybe 80% to 90%. Do you really think that every write to a CF card is executed without some (usually recoverable) error? Or that there aren't errors on the firewire that have to be recovered from? Noise that has to be dealt with and may differ from camera to camera? etc etc etc.

It would however be trivial for Focus Enhancements to replace the hard drive in a Firestore with a CF card slot since a CF controller behaves like any mounted filesystem.

It's a shame the FS-5 didn't have this as an option. I'm pretty sure that even the cheapest CF these days can handle a sustained 25Mbps write. Cheap removable solid state media would have been way cool.

[Giroud Francois]

it is even more a shame that they are not even able to pop in a bigger hard disk (common size today is 160 gig or even 320gig for a 2.5").
these guys are just lazy....
They probably wait for some Jim Jannard to explain them how to skip several generation of developpement and cut price in half
today i can buy a firestore and upgrade it with a big hardisk for almost nothing or even better, put a SSD disk to get a full solid state recorder (and this will not cost too much regarding the price of the device). This is a pity that it is not already proposed.
My opinion is when user can make the device better by just swapping part, there is something wrong at the marketing dept.

and to answer... yes i use disk based capture device since the begining, I got a SONY DSR-DU1 since many years.

[Jim Andrada]

Good point - it would be relatively easy for Focus to do it - but lately I'm not sure what their strategy really is.

[Sam Mendolia]

A thought occured yesterday, why hasn't anyone tried a Pocket PC, with firewire PCMCIA adapter, connected to the camera and an external harddrive.

All we need is an Operating System, and some RAM, on this.
Probably not a fast CPU on these units,
It would be nice if, someone with one of these units could try it out, and let the rest of us know the results, please.

Just a thought.

[Denis Danatzko]

Originally Posted by George Kroonder

Hi Denis,

Actually I'm with you on that one.

I was just asking Giroud Francois why he would want one and possibly find out why it is of so little value to him.

George/

sorry, George.

I took your question to mean that you saw no reason/value in using one for your purposes, i.e. "Why would you possibly even WANT one?" . (The written word is sometimes a poor vehicle for communication; easy example = all the time and energy put into interpreting the meaning of the Second Amendment).

[Yalon Benhabib]

Hi all,

Well i read through this thread and i myself asked almost all of the questions that were mentioned here about a year ago.
i bought an FS-4 to "feel" how it is like and to be honest the device is very focused (and i dont men the company's name) - it does EXACTLY one thing - record to the HD inside period.
well its purpose is covered ok but it doesnt worth (for my opinion) its price and even the FS-5 now out.
I believe that if i'd to pay 700-1200$ device it should be capable of doing a "little" more...
so i started developing a solution for that (i am an electronics engineer) - taking into consideration the following :
1. portable (small enough...)
2. more user friendly ( i have the FS-4 and its interface is too dedicated for my opinion)
3. more features.
4. user hardware upgradable - if you want to put bigger hard drive - suit yourself.
5. user software upgradeable - open source OS or windows capable device.
and more.

so i built a basic prototype several months ago (i left the portability aside just to show the proof of concept) which worked very good. this took me to the next stage - miniaturizing.
the goal is tho have a device the size of the FS-4 (actually a little bit smaller) which has a 3.5" color TFT screen with touch panel that will run XP/Linux and will have a Firewire ports to allow DV/HDV recording to internal hard drive - all this having in mind portability.
right now i am waiting for the hardware i designed to arrive (it was already manufactured and is now in the QA stage) from the manufacturer. soon as it comes (hopefully next month) i will start building the first generation prototype.
a an also working on pricing (i want to get it low as possible) - go under the 700$....time will tell.

[Giroud Francois]

an archos device is able to capture video and replay on its internal lcd screen, all of this for less than 400$. ok, quality is poor (mpeg4) , but it is due to marketing decision more than technical limitation.
http://www.archos.com/products/gen_5...global&lang=en
I am pretty sure that a portable playstation (PSP) can be hacked to offer most of what is needed for this kind of feature. and a psp does not cost 1000$.
anyway, a 64gig SSD cost less than 250$, there is no reason not to see one in a firestore.
it is not even a change in hardware, they just need to switch their reference part number.
they probably wait for ver 7 of firestore to announce it. what a pity.

[Yalon Benhabib]

Well first, this thread is aiming for the pro market which uses the DV or now HDV standards so with all due respect to Archos, their main goal is the electronic consumer area so mpeg4 is good for that matter.
second, regarding the SSD, it seems it yet have some birth problems as although it looks like "no moving parts - hey - less power..." - well no. currently SSD's still have power consumption issues and access time problems so it will take a little longer until good SSD based devices will show up.

[Brian Standing]

I think the real reason -- which is true for almost every piece of "pro" gear -- is that the companies that manufacture and market these target broadcast production companies and Hollywood film studios where the people purchasing the gear are using "other people's money" and so consequently, price is no object.

It's like the U.S. Defense Department. The big studios are so used to paying exorbitant, inflated prices that if a low-cost option even comes available, they'll turn up their noses at it and won't buy it. Obviously, as long as there is a market willing to overpay for specialized gear, why should manufacturers drop the price?

Not to say there aren't things where you get what you pay for (like tripods!). But when it comes to capturing video to a hard drive, I'd say on the basis of cost, speed, capacity reliability and quality, the lowliest Linux laptop beats any of the specialized Firestores, nnovias, etc. hands down.

All we need is a unit small enough to hang on the back of a camera and with a battery that will run for more than two hours.

[Yalon Benhabib]

Brian, i agree with you - i also see this thing you say about people paying too much for things they think "it cos that much than it must be good..." .
i think Linux shows the world (at least i saw that..) that if we share our knowledge and work together we may accomplish something far more effective for much less money. but dont forget that at the end of the day (maybe month) you have to bring some pay check home so that you can have one (a place you call home) and that you can eat and drink.
i myself have invested over $30,000 for the creature like you described (put it in the back of the camera and be able to record around two hours) without the need of a mortgage for such a device in one hand, but on the other i do expect to get my investment back plus some change. there is nothing wrong about that.
dont forget - there will always be those who will buy things (no matter which or what) that will buy only for the reasons of 1. high price=the best available and 2. brand name. both of which aren't always true .

[D.J. Ammons]

Last March Sony reps at a Sony display told me that the MRU (memory recording unit) that records to standard CF cards on the new Sony Z7U camera was going to be sold seperately for use with other Sony cameras like the two V1U's I own.

However I have not been able to find any info about when or the price point on the internet. It might be soon though since they have been offering a $500 rebate on the Sony hard drive memory recording unit.