Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR at DVinfo.net

Graham King · May 18th, 2011, 03:17 PM

I got a minuscule amount of money to shoot a video of a sparring session at a local dojo. Figured it was a perfect time to bust out with some 60p and the glidecam. I poured my heart into the edit hoping to end up with a nice portfolio piece. Let me know what you think!

Lee Tamer · May 18th, 2011, 03:29 PM

pretty cool stuff

Jeff Murray · May 19th, 2011, 12:18 AM

It's a really great edit and the slow motion is brilliant - well done. A great action piece and you caught their stares and emotions well and it has a perfect build up to the action.

Two very small points -

- the arms and legs strobe a little in the real time pieces - probably the result of a fast shutter speed (I've made this mistake myself - so its nothing to worry about and you can only fix it by having two cameras at the scene 1 for the slow motion faster shutter speed and 60 fps and another at 1/48th and 24 fps so you get the motion blur). If your looking for smoother action in real time you could look at putting some motion blur back in in post if you have the FX to do it.
- I'd like to see more of the 'celebrations' at the 2/3's point ie: the back slapping, high 5's etc just to give the piece a natural crescendo.

Overall, a great piece and very much one for the port folio or show reel.

Graham King · May 19th, 2011, 12:44 AM

Thanks for the feedback Jeff. The fast shutter was intentional but yes, it is too fast for the real time stuff. I was going for a 90º shutter on the slo mo so I had it at 1/250. So that's a 36º shutter at 24fps. Only one way to fix it as you said. If I was going to do it again I would go with a 180º shutter at 60fps.

Anyway thanks again!

Josh Bass · May 19th, 2011, 12:47 AM

I'm always curious about you folks that do more run n gun stuff like this, weddings, etc. with the DSLRs: HOW do you keep focus? I'm working on a no budget short with a 5D (and yes, I realize the 7D, and T2i have smaller sensors and therefore deeper depth of field at a given stop or focal length), and it is murder getting even a few feet of focus to work with (focus pulling often not an option), and that's on a shoot where everything is planned/blocked!

So how do guys follow moving action while not going soft, and furthermore, JUDGING the focus? The loupes? on cam monitor? auto focus? follow focus rig?

Just curious. Thanks.

Graham King · May 19th, 2011, 01:18 AM

I am often surprised when people talk about how hard it is for them to focus their DSLR. I have always found it easy and I consider it the fun part of shooting on these cameras. But that said, I have 11 years experience with manual focus... and a Z-finder

A high quality loupe is a must for me. It allows me to nail the focus and exposure every time. I had the SmallHD DP6 monitor, used it on 2 shoots and sent it back. The monitor is great but the HDMI output on all the Canon DSLRs (except the 7D) is SD and even then the image doesn't fill the frame. Totally useless for run and gun.

But more importantly, I have been shooting video for 11 years and from the very beginning I was taught that auto focus is a no no for professionals. My finger has always been on the focus ring from the JVC DV500 to the Sony PD150 to the Sony EX1 to the 5D, 7D and 60D. I become one with the lens to the point that I'm adjusting focus without thinking about it. Even on the 5D with the 85 at 1.8 I can follow someone coming toward or going away from me quite accurately. Never used an actual follow focus and it's not on my list of things I wish I had right now.

It's all about getting a really good look at your screen and getting a lot of practice!

Josh Bass · May 19th, 2011, 01:29 AM

Thanks. Have not used a loupe yet. You'd consider it essential, then? As in, with just the LCD on the cam alone you'd be hosed?

Also, the setting we're using has the sharpness all the way down (probably not helping the issue). Never used auto focus much myself with other cams but also don't do much focus pulling to follow moving subjects.

Graham King · May 19th, 2011, 01:34 AM

Definitely essential. Without it I'd be hosed if the sun was hitting the screen. Otherwise, I'd get by but I wouldn't be happy about it and I wouldn't be fully confident in my output.

Sharpness all the way down is the right way to go. Otherwise you're going to amplify the aliasing. Sharpen in post if needed. Contrast all the way down too.

Josh Bass · May 19th, 2011, 01:39 AM

Yeah, that's what we have it set to.

I'm impressed. Those loupes must be magic.

Even with our on cam (a lilliput 7") I can only REALLY tell when I use the button to zoom it digitally 5x or 10x for critical focus.

I would think the follow focus would make life even easier, being that it puts your hand in a more relaxed position (in my opinion) and allows you to support the cam by virtue of holding it as well.

We have done focus pulls for certain shots, but have always gone by the lens numbers as opposed to by eye (e.g. mark 1 is 20 ft, mark 2 is between the 5 ft and 10 ft lens marks, etc.). check it after to make sure we nailed it.

Graham King · May 19th, 2011, 01:44 AM

A monitor is no good for critical focus without an HD signal.

Sounds like a follow focus is what you need. Dial the focus in perfectly with the zoom and then mark it with a dry erase marker.

If I was going to get serious about film work, I'd probably invest in one.

Jon Braeley · May 19th, 2011, 10:40 AM

One of the biggest problems in focusing with DSLR's is zoom lenses and this is always overlooked.

DSLR zooms like Canon, Nikon, throw out the focus if you zoom. The lens are parfocal, meaning when you adjust the focal length on a zoom, you need to refocus. The difference is hard to see but when you look on a large monitor is becomes apparent - slightly out of focus.

If focusing is critical do not adjust the zoom or use primes.

Robert Turchick · May 19th, 2011, 11:31 AM

Graham..cool stuff!
A couple of suggestions for making a showpiece for you skills which are obviously there!

1) if you get the chance...reshoot at night but bring your own lights, don't overlight it...the drama of having people pop out of shadows would be killer...plus the colors will pop a bit more. Maybe stage a few of the sparring shots.

2) shorten the piece to about a minute. The music is killer but overall the piece feels slow because of the length...especially the intro.

3) consider some time remapping to show the initial speed then slowmo an impact. Then if it works with the music, back to realtime.

4) get a bit more broll in there. The gloves at the beginning are cool. Sprinkle quick shots in...maybe black and white for those. Some exterior shots or meditation

5) does the dojo do any weapons training? Would be cool to see some other things.

You have some killer stuff here...sorry if I get overzealous with direction but it's exciting to see stuff like this and think of what I'd do with that kind of footage!

Graham King · May 20th, 2011, 04:32 AM

Jon, you're right but I think you meant to say theses SLR zooms are NOT parfocal. Anyway, yes that is part of the deal but it doesn't stop me from zooming while recording. I just make focus adjustments after and they're usually dramatic as I go past the focal point before coming back to nail it. This is acceptable for some shoots and not for others.

Robert, I appreciate your zeal! Those are all great suggestions and in fact, the one spot where I did a time remap happens to be my favorite part of the edit 1:11. Looking back, I wish I would have done more of that. But I'm not beating myself up because it was a single day 10-hour edit because of a deadline. I was totally loving it when I went to bed (I had a dream I got 20 likes on vimeo - no joke!) and I was still very happy with it the next morning but I saw things I didn't see at 3am the night before.

In any case, it's a wrap on this project. It'll have to wait for my next martial arts project!

Jimmy Toha · May 20th, 2011, 09:53 PM

That's really nicely done, Graham. Blends with the music very well.

Must have had lots of shots and I don't see any out of focus shots. There's even one mid shot of a lady fighter with shallow depth of field but she stays in focus. I can see what you meant by you adjusting focus even without realizing it :)

My favourite part is during the bridge (I think?) when the fighters gave each other a hug before and after the sparring. It's powerful.

Graham King · May 22nd, 2011, 01:48 AM

Thanks Jimmy. I was surprised how much footage I got. I was on site for 2 hours and ended up with about 55 minutes of raw footage. I was originally aiming for a 60 second edit but turns out I had enough stuff to make it through the song.

Yup, that's the bridge. Turned out to be a perfect spot for the camaraderie stuff. I knew I had to fit it in somewhere. I love how things always come together somehow.

May 18th, 2011, 03:29 PM	#2
Lee Tamer Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Ellicott City, MD Posts: 188	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR pretty cool stuff

May 19th, 2011, 12:18 AM	#3
Jeff Murray Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Glasgow, United Kingdom Posts: 176	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR It's a really great edit and the slow motion is brilliant - well done. A great action piece and you caught their stares and emotions well and it has a perfect build up to the action. Two very small points - - the arms and legs strobe a little in the real time pieces - probably the result of a fast shutter speed (I've made this mistake myself - so its nothing to worry about and you can only fix it by having two cameras at the scene 1 for the slow motion faster shutter speed and 60 fps and another at 1/48th and 24 fps so you get the motion blur). If your looking for smoother action in real time you could look at putting some motion blur back in in post if you have the FX to do it. - I'd like to see more of the 'celebrations' at the 2/3's point ie: the back slapping, high 5's etc just to give the piece a natural crescendo. Overall, a great piece and very much one for the port folio or show reel.

May 19th, 2011, 12:44 AM	#4
Graham King Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 112	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR Thanks for the feedback Jeff. The fast shutter was intentional but yes, it is too fast for the real time stuff. I was going for a 90º shutter on the slo mo so I had it at 1/250. So that's a 36º shutter at 24fps. Only one way to fix it as you said. If I was going to do it again I would go with a 180º shutter at 60fps. Anyway thanks again!

May 19th, 2011, 12:47 AM	#5
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR I'm always curious about you folks that do more run n gun stuff like this, weddings, etc. with the DSLRs: HOW do you keep focus? I'm working on a no budget short with a 5D (and yes, I realize the 7D, and T2i have smaller sensors and therefore deeper depth of field at a given stop or focal length), and it is murder getting even a few feet of focus to work with (focus pulling often not an option), and that's on a shoot where everything is planned/blocked! So how do guys follow moving action while not going soft, and furthermore, JUDGING the focus? The loupes? on cam monitor? auto focus? follow focus rig? Just curious. Thanks. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

May 19th, 2011, 01:18 AM	#6
Graham King Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 112	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR I am often surprised when people talk about how hard it is for them to focus their DSLR. I have always found it easy and I consider it the fun part of shooting on these cameras. But that said, I have 11 years experience with manual focus... and a Z-finder A high quality loupe is a must for me. It allows me to nail the focus and exposure every time. I had the SmallHD DP6 monitor, used it on 2 shoots and sent it back. The monitor is great but the HDMI output on all the Canon DSLRs (except the 7D) is SD and even then the image doesn't fill the frame. Totally useless for run and gun. But more importantly, I have been shooting video for 11 years and from the very beginning I was taught that auto focus is a no no for professionals. My finger has always been on the focus ring from the JVC DV500 to the Sony PD150 to the Sony EX1 to the 5D, 7D and 60D. I become one with the lens to the point that I'm adjusting focus without thinking about it. Even on the 5D with the 85 at 1.8 I can follow someone coming toward or going away from me quite accurately. Never used an actual follow focus and it's not on my list of things I wish I had right now. It's all about getting a really good look at your screen and getting a lot of practice!

May 19th, 2011, 01:29 AM	#7
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR Thanks. Have not used a loupe yet. You'd consider it essential, then? As in, with just the LCD on the cam alone you'd be hosed? Also, the setting we're using has the sharpness all the way down (probably not helping the issue). Never used auto focus much myself with other cams but also don't do much focus pulling to follow moving subjects. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

May 19th, 2011, 01:34 AM	#8
Graham King Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 112	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR Definitely essential. Without it I'd be hosed if the sun was hitting the screen. Otherwise, I'd get by but I wouldn't be happy about it and I wouldn't be fully confident in my output. Sharpness all the way down is the right way to go. Otherwise you're going to amplify the aliasing. Sharpen in post if needed. Contrast all the way down too.

May 19th, 2011, 01:39 AM	#9
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR Yeah, that's what we have it set to. I'm impressed. Those loupes must be magic. Even with our on cam (a lilliput 7") I can only REALLY tell when I use the button to zoom it digitally 5x or 10x for critical focus. I would think the follow focus would make life even easier, being that it puts your hand in a more relaxed position (in my opinion) and allows you to support the cam by virtue of holding it as well. We have done focus pulls for certain shots, but have always gone by the lens numbers as opposed to by eye (e.g. mark 1 is 20 ft, mark 2 is between the 5 ft and 10 ft lens marks, etc.). check it after to make sure we nailed it. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

May 19th, 2011, 01:44 AM	#10
Graham King Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 112	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR A monitor is no good for critical focus without an HD signal. Sounds like a follow focus is what you need. Dial the focus in perfectly with the zoom and then mark it with a dry erase marker. If I was going to get serious about film work, I'd probably invest in one.

May 19th, 2011, 10:40 AM	#11
Jon Braeley Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 528	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR One of the biggest problems in focusing with DSLR's is zoom lenses and this is always overlooked. DSLR zooms like Canon, Nikon, throw out the focus if you zoom. The lens are parfocal, meaning when you adjust the focal length on a zoom, you need to refocus. The difference is hard to see but when you look on a large monitor is becomes apparent - slightly out of focus. If focusing is critical do not adjust the zoom or use primes.

May 19th, 2011, 11:31 AM	#12
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR Graham..cool stuff! A couple of suggestions for making a showpiece for you skills which are obviously there! 1) if you get the chance...reshoot at night but bring your own lights, don't overlight it...the drama of having people pop out of shadows would be killer...plus the colors will pop a bit more. Maybe stage a few of the sparring shots. 2) shorten the piece to about a minute. The music is killer but overall the piece feels slow because of the length...especially the intro. 3) consider some time remapping to show the initial speed then slowmo an impact. Then if it works with the music, back to realtime. 4) get a bit more broll in there. The gloves at the beginning are cool. Sprinkle quick shots in...maybe black and white for those. Some exterior shots or meditation 5) does the dojo do any weapons training? Would be cool to see some other things. You have some killer stuff here...sorry if I get overzealous with direction but it's exciting to see stuff like this and think of what I'd do with that kind of footage! __________________ The older I get, the better I was!

May 20th, 2011, 04:32 AM	#13
Graham King Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 112	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR Jon, you're right but I think you meant to say theses SLR zooms are NOT parfocal. Anyway, yes that is part of the deal but it doesn't stop me from zooming while recording. I just make focus adjustments after and they're usually dramatic as I go past the focal point before coming back to nail it. This is acceptable for some shoots and not for others. Robert, I appreciate your zeal! Those are all great suggestions and in fact, the one spot where I did a time remap happens to be my favorite part of the edit 1:11. Looking back, I wish I would have done more of that. But I'm not beating myself up because it was a single day 10-hour edit because of a deadline. I was totally loving it when I went to bed (I had a dream I got 20 likes on vimeo - no joke!) and I was still very happy with it the next morning but I saw things I didn't see at 3am the night before. In any case, it's a wrap on this project. It'll have to wait for my next martial arts project!

May 20th, 2011, 09:53 PM	#14
Jimmy Toha Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Singapore Posts: 59	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR That's really nicely done, Graham. Blends with the music very well. Must have had lots of shots and I don't see any out of focus shots. There's even one mid shot of a lady fighter with shallow depth of field but she stays in focus. I can see what you meant by you adjusting focus even without realizing it :) My favourite part is during the bridge (I think?) when the fighters gave each other a hug before and after the sparring. It's powerful.

May 22nd, 2011, 01:48 AM	#15
Graham King Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 112	Re: Martial Arts video shot on the 7D - my first time playing with 60p on a DSLR Thanks Jimmy. I was surprised how much footage I got. I was on site for 2 hours and ended up with about 55 minutes of raw footage. I was originally aiming for a 60 second edit but turns out I had enough stuff to make it through the song. Yup, that's the bridge. Turned out to be a perfect spot for the camaraderie stuff. I knew I had to fit it in somewhere. I love how things always come together somehow.