60P to DVD? at DVinfo.net

Benjamin Hill · May 1st, 2007, 07:08 PM

Is anybody delivering 60P footage on DVD? If so I'd like to find out about your results.

I shoot a fair amount of dance performances and figured 60P would be perfect for the application (the "fast" look of video without the interlacing) and it does look great in FCP, but on DVD it resembles 30P or Canon Frame mode and I'm trying to eliminate variables here. Thanks for ANY info.

Scott Jaco · May 2nd, 2007, 01:34 AM

If your going to DVD, your stuck converting it to 60i.

Benjamin Hill · May 2nd, 2007, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Jaco

If your going to DVD, your stuck converting it to 60i.

If you're saying all DVDs are 60i, yes I understand. What I'm trying to find out is HOW I can get 60P to actually look like 60i on DVD. In terms of temporal resolution.

Ervin Farkas · May 2nd, 2007, 08:01 AM

You can't get progressive to look like smooth interlaced (in terms of temporal smoothness) - progressive is used exactly for the opposite reason. While interlaced has a smooth motion due to the 60 half-frames, if you encode 60p to DVD, it will get reduced to 30p (throwing away every other frame), then doubling the 30 frames to make 60 half-frames, but the 30 "new" half frames will be identical to the original, hence the "film look", slightly jerky movement. For fast movement like in dance, you're better off using interlaced all the way - especially if you're after a sharp picture; progressive is softer than interlaced.

What you might want to try is some sort of smart interlacer software or plugin. VirtualDub is where I would start experimenting.

Benjamin Hill · May 2nd, 2007, 08:40 AM

Ervin, thanks for responding. So in the encoding process, every other frame gets thrown away? That would explain my results.

But how is then that Fox News and other programming that originates in 720P/60 is broadcast without losing the fast look? I understand "American Idol" is shot 60P, and that stuff is sharp as a tack.

Ervin Farkas · May 2nd, 2007, 08:52 AM

That's where a smart interlacer comes in place - something more advanced than what comes standard with our NLE software.

Benjamin Hill · May 2nd, 2007, 08:56 AM

I'll look into it, thanks for the tips

Benjamin Hill · May 2nd, 2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas

That's where a smart interlacer comes in place - something more advanced than what comes standard with our NLE software.

Ervin, is this smart interlacer something you've seen somewhere or just theoretical? Appreciate any more info.

John Gerard · November 9th, 2011, 05:48 PM

Hi all,
I just Finished editing tennis footage from two different cameras. One is a Sony FX-7 60i video camera and the other is a new Canon 60D camera that I shot at 1280x720P at 60FPS. I noticed the same thing that I can only output at 29.97 if I output to Mpeg2-DVD. I have not tried creating a DVD of the 60P footage yet. I tried a sample of the 60P footage on a Blu-ray disc and that looked better than the original footage, less film grain and it looked very smooth. I think I exported the footage as Mpeg2 Blu-ray. Is there any other way to output 60p footage and then record it to a DVD as 60P. I have a Blu-ray writer now if Blu-ray supports 60p. I am thinking that maybe recording in Mpeg4 format might work? The client would have to have a Blu-ray player of course. Which might be am option. I eventually want to put it on my website and then I really need it to be in 60p for better slow motion.
But what happens if I record 30P footage and export it to DVD? Does it turn out to be only about 15FPS or is the footage still 30FPS?
I usually export my footage as progressive, field order as "none" and the footage on DVD always looks great.

Thanks fr the thoughts,
John Gerard

Ervin Farkas · November 23rd, 2011, 10:58 PM

DVD is limited to 24P and 60i; with BD you can go 60P but only up to 1280x720 pixels.

See Blu-ray Disc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a full list of formats.

Brian Tori · November 26th, 2011, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Hill

Ervin, thanks for responding. So in the encoding process, every other frame gets thrown away? That would explain my results.

But how is then that Fox News and other programming that originates in 720P/60 is broadcast without losing the fast look? I understand "American Idol" is shot 60P, and that stuff is sharp as a tack.

Because the signal that reaches your home is in fact 720p60. There is no dropping of frames or conversion frame-wise to anything else. I think your confusing the DVD encoding process with the broadcast process.

Brian Tori · November 26th, 2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Hill

If you're saying all DVDs are 60i, yes I understand. What I'm trying to find out is HOW I can get 60P to actually look like 60i on DVD. In terms of temporal resolution.

I think the problem you might be having is due to the settings you're using during the encoding process. Because a 60p to 60i DVD conversion should maintain the same temporal look. The only difference is that the progressive frames are now being split between two fields. The new framerate is now 29.97 but it is still 60i. I think there is some confusion on this thread as to what is happening during the conversion. What I think may be happening in your case is that you are telling your encoder to produce a 30p DVD which most encoders will allow you to do since it is in the DVD spec. This is wrong if you want to maintain the same motion characteristics. Make sure your settings are 29.97 interlaced instead of progressive fames.

John Gerard · December 6th, 2011, 02:36 PM

Hi,
I understand what you are saying. I did a lot of reading on how interlaced and "tube" SD TV works. I did not know that information, however. In my latest export attempt to get better quality output to MPEG2-DVD format I set the settings to Automatic for everything. Pixel Aspect Ratio, etc. and checked High Quality and highest quality Bit depth encoding with "Use Previews" unchecked. This has given me much better quality HDV footage. Reading the Premiere Proi CS5 manual it says not to change these setting from what you set the initial project and sequences to originally for best encoding results.
My question for my 720P60 footage should I just leave it with the above settings or tell Premiere to force it to encode as interlaced 29.97. Premiere Pro might be doing this automaticly but this I am not sure? I set the DSLR sequences to the DSLR 60P preset. I have mostly DSLR fotage in these sequences but a little HDV 1440x1080i footage as well. Would this be the best way to do it? Premiere Pro CS5 is supposed to mix and match footage in the same sequence automaticly. And is Premiere Exporting the DSLR sequences as Square pixels and is this incorrect? With the above export settings the HDV footage looks great. The Diags of the tennis court are kept to a mjinimum. In the 720p60 DSLR footage the Diags are terrible. :-( is there anything I can do about it or is this just a product of DSLR cameras?

Thank for the help,
John Gerard

Ian Skurrie · January 7th, 2012, 02:04 AM

Hi the simple answer to your problem is that if you shoot 60p and use automatic settings the encoder will throw away every second frame and then double the frames and interlace them.... Not very smart as you have just lost a lot of information. The short answer is that you must force the encoder to convert each frame to a field so that you get two differant fields per frame, It is easy to see this as you use a player like (VLC) or quicktime professional to see if you have a comb effect which means that you have true interlacing. The best software available to convert 60p to 60i in the PC world is Virtual Dub which is free. The process is not simple but with a little googling you should be able to figure it out.

Someone commented that progressive material carries less information than interlaced. This is not true, per frame for the same datarate on a DVD the same amount of information is carried. However every frame in interlaced mode contains two fields with the information split between the fields, this means that each field has half as much information thus temporal resolution of interlaced material is less than progressive frames given that we are keeping the frame rate constant.

May 1st, 2007, 07:08 PM	#1
Benjamin Hill Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Iowa City, Iowa Posts: 670	60P to DVD? Is anybody delivering 60P footage on DVD? If so I'd like to find out about your results. I shoot a fair amount of dance performances and figured 60P would be perfect for the application (the "fast" look of video without the interlacing) and it does look great in FCP, but on DVD it resembles 30P or Canon Frame mode and I'm trying to eliminate variables here. Thanks for ANY info. __________________ youtube.com/benhillmedia linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia

May 2nd, 2007, 08:01 AM	#4
Ervin Farkas Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta/USA Posts: 2,515	You can't get progressive to look like smooth interlaced (in terms of temporal smoothness) - progressive is used exactly for the opposite reason. While interlaced has a smooth motion due to the 60 half-frames, if you encode 60p to DVD, it will get reduced to 30p (throwing away every other frame), then doubling the 30 frames to make 60 half-frames, but the 30 "new" half frames will be identical to the original, hence the "film look", slightly jerky movement. For fast movement like in dance, you're better off using interlaced all the way - especially if you're after a sharp picture; progressive is softer than interlaced. What you might want to try is some sort of smart interlacer software or plugin. VirtualDub is where I would start experimenting. __________________ Ervin Farkas www.AtlantaLegalVideo.com

May 2nd, 2007, 08:40 AM	#5
Benjamin Hill Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Iowa City, Iowa Posts: 670	Ervin, thanks for responding. So in the encoding process, every other frame gets thrown away? That would explain my results. But how is then that Fox News and other programming that originates in 720P/60 is broadcast without losing the fast look? I understand "American Idol" is shot 60P, and that stuff is sharp as a tack. __________________ youtube.com/benhillmedia linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia

May 2nd, 2007, 08:52 AM	#6
Ervin Farkas Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta/USA Posts: 2,515	That's where a smart interlacer comes in place - something more advanced than what comes standard with our NLE software. __________________ Ervin Farkas www.AtlantaLegalVideo.com

May 2nd, 2007, 08:56 AM	#7
Benjamin Hill Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Iowa City, Iowa Posts: 670	I'll look into it, thanks for the tips __________________ youtube.com/benhillmedia linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia

May 2nd, 2007, 01:34 AM	#2
Scott Jaco Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 471	If your going to DVD, your stuck converting it to 60i.

November 9th, 2011, 05:48 PM	#9
John Gerard Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Berkeley, CA, USA Posts: 227	Re: 60P to DVD? Hi all, I just Finished editing tennis footage from two different cameras. One is a Sony FX-7 60i video camera and the other is a new Canon 60D camera that I shot at 1280x720P at 60FPS. I noticed the same thing that I can only output at 29.97 if I output to Mpeg2-DVD. I have not tried creating a DVD of the 60P footage yet. I tried a sample of the 60P footage on a Blu-ray disc and that looked better than the original footage, less film grain and it looked very smooth. I think I exported the footage as Mpeg2 Blu-ray. Is there any other way to output 60p footage and then record it to a DVD as 60P. I have a Blu-ray writer now if Blu-ray supports 60p. I am thinking that maybe recording in Mpeg4 format might work? The client would have to have a Blu-ray player of course. Which might be am option. I eventually want to put it on my website and then I really need it to be in 60p for better slow motion. But what happens if I record 30P footage and export it to DVD? Does it turn out to be only about 15FPS or is the footage still 30FPS? I usually export my footage as progressive, field order as "none" and the footage on DVD always looks great. Thanks fr the thoughts, John Gerard

November 23rd, 2011, 10:58 PM	#10
Ervin Farkas Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta/USA Posts: 2,515	Re: 60P to DVD? DVD is limited to 24P and 60i; with BD you can go 60P but only up to 1280x720 pixels. See Blu-ray Disc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a full list of formats. __________________ Ervin Farkas www.AtlantaLegalVideo.com

December 6th, 2011, 02:36 PM	#13
John Gerard Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Berkeley, CA, USA Posts: 227	Re: 60P to DVD? Hi, I understand what you are saying. I did a lot of reading on how interlaced and "tube" SD TV works. I did not know that information, however. In my latest export attempt to get better quality output to MPEG2-DVD format I set the settings to Automatic for everything. Pixel Aspect Ratio, etc. and checked High Quality and highest quality Bit depth encoding with "Use Previews" unchecked. This has given me much better quality HDV footage. Reading the Premiere Proi CS5 manual it says not to change these setting from what you set the initial project and sequences to originally for best encoding results. My question for my 720P60 footage should I just leave it with the above settings or tell Premiere to force it to encode as interlaced 29.97. Premiere Pro might be doing this automaticly but this I am not sure? I set the DSLR sequences to the DSLR 60P preset. I have mostly DSLR fotage in these sequences but a little HDV 1440x1080i footage as well. Would this be the best way to do it? Premiere Pro CS5 is supposed to mix and match footage in the same sequence automaticly. And is Premiere Exporting the DSLR sequences as Square pixels and is this incorrect? With the above export settings the HDV footage looks great. The Diags of the tennis court are kept to a mjinimum. In the 720p60 DSLR footage the Diags are terrible. :-( is there anything I can do about it or is this just a product of DSLR cameras? Thank for the help, John Gerard

January 7th, 2012, 02:04 AM	#14
Ian Skurrie Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mooroolbark, Victoria, AU Posts: 63	Re: 60P to DVD? Hi the simple answer to your problem is that if you shoot 60p and use automatic settings the encoder will throw away every second frame and then double the frames and interlace them.... Not very smart as you have just lost a lot of information. The short answer is that you must force the encoder to convert each frame to a field so that you get two differant fields per frame, It is easy to see this as you use a player like (VLC) or quicktime professional to see if you have a comb effect which means that you have true interlacing. The best software available to convert 60p to 60i in the PC world is Virtual Dub which is free. The process is not simple but with a little googling you should be able to figure it out. Someone commented that progressive material carries less information than interlaced. This is not true, per frame for the same datarate on a DVD the same amount of information is carried. However every frame in interlaced mode contains two fields with the information split between the fields, this means that each field has half as much information thus temporal resolution of interlaced material is less than progressive frames given that we are keeping the frame rate constant.