Best Overall Settings for DVD Playback at DVinfo.net

Robb Swiatek · January 16th, 2007, 04:13 PM

Basically here's my question/problem.

I have to edit an action sports documentary (motocross) that was shot entirely on DV in your normal 60i format. Now obviously, no one in their right mind would put out the corresponding DVD in 60i as it looks unprofessional and well, video-like. They would render the footage to 24p and have the final output of the DVD be 24p just like any film production.

Now my question is what the easiest way I should go about doing this with Vegas 5.0 (I also have After Effects if that allows things to be done easier).

I've been reading up on all the info I can find and have been experimenting with everything I can trying to get it just right when viewed on DVD but to no avail. The 24 frames per second are apparent but the quality is terrible. I must be doing something wrong.

David Jimerson · January 16th, 2007, 06:35 PM

Man, if you've got a sports show, especially something as kinetic as a motocross, I'm going to guess that between the camera motion while shooting and the movement of the bikes, you're not going to be able to make a good 24p conversion.

If you're shooting 60i with the intention of converting to 24p, you need to be VERY careful about how you handle the camera. You have to handle it like you would a 24p camera, with SLOW zooms, SLOW pans, and other general camera management which isn't necessary with 60i, which records 2.5x the temporal information (and at 1/60 shutter, is recording 100% of the time).

It's almost a foregone conclusion that whoever shot the motocross didn't follow those rules, because they almost certainly didn't have a 24p output in mind, and it's also very difficult to do at a live event, especially a sports event.

So, if it's not shot for 24p conversion, chances are, the results are not going to be what you want -- as you've already noticed. You most likely didn't do anything wrong when converting -- it's overwhelmingly likely that the footage just isn't suitable for 24p conversion.

Also keep in mind that when you're converting from 60i to 24p, you're losing vertical resolution. Not to mention that the deinterlace method matters -- if you're using the "Blend Fields" option (in the project properties) and there's a lot of motion, you're going to get horrible ghosting around anything moving. Always use "Interpolate Fields" for motion footage. (Not that that setting alone is going to make for a good conversion in this case.)

But sports is better shot at 60i, anyway. It doesn't look "unprofessional"; it looks like . . . sports. Professional sports you see on TV *could* be shot at 24p, but they never are, and that's because every frame rate has its uses. 60i is appropriate for sports.

So, render for a standard NTSC DVD.

Robb Swiatek · January 16th, 2007, 11:29 PM

Thanks for the quick response, David.

But here's the thing, with every mx documentary out there, not one of them have that video-like look to them. And I know for a fact there's been footage included shot in 60i as well has film for a bunch of them.

And I've also been trying to base some ideas off of an ESPN Timeless piece on James Stewart that was on TV a couple of years ago. http://www.milfordridersmc.com/yz931...s/Timeless.wmv (quality is crappy but you can still see that it's definitely not 60i)

So would you suggest anything else other than just editing/rendering in regular 60i format? Or rather is there anything I can try to experiment with to get what I'm looking for?

Jim Montgomery · January 17th, 2007, 07:34 AM

Robb

First thing, I am not sure what the video look is. Is it that you lack a depth of field, or color is not great, or the picture is to sharp. All of these will require a different approach.

If its an interlacing issue then there is a plug in on videocopilot.net that could be used in after affects to get the look you want.

Bill Ravens · January 17th, 2007, 07:37 AM

LOL...I've yet to see a DV videocam operator with 1/3 inch chips complain he's not got enuff DOF.

David Jimerson · January 17th, 2007, 07:42 AM

You could try for 30p -- outputting as 29.97 progressive. Make sure that your deinterlace method is "Interpolate Fields."

Robb Swiatek · January 19th, 2007, 12:23 PM

I guess my biggest concern at this point is that the picture is too sharp. It just has that home video look to me when rendered in the normal NTSC DV template/settings.

Jarrod Whaley · January 20th, 2007, 10:17 PM

If it's too sharp, try adding a tiny amount of gaussian blur. Desaturating the colors might help a little bit, too.

That said, I doubt a surplus of sharpness is the only thing you have a problem with--though it's hard to say, because we can't see the footage and because most of us probably don't know exactly what it is about the image that you have a problem with. There are any number of things that could be making the footage look "video-y" or home-movie-ish. Many things which might be contributing to the problem are likely to be the kinds of things that you can't entirely fix in post (cheap camera, operator error, etc.). But if there's something you don't like, it's always possible to do something that will make things look at least a little better.

Be very, very, very specific about what it is that you don't like, and maybe we'll be able to help you. You might also want to post some footage for us too. Can't hurt.

Robb Swiatek · January 21st, 2007, 01:07 AM

Well here's a little edited piece I threw together just to show as a sample of the "video-ish" look I'm not too keen on. Anything short of making it look like decent quality 24p or any other suggestions I am open to and am willing to try so please don't hesitate to speak your mind.

AVI format (132mb)
http://www.milfordridersmc.com/yz931...y06_10_fmx.avi

MPEG2 format (26.7mb)
http://www.milfordridersmc.com/yz931...y06_10_fmx.mpg

MOV format (13mb)
http://www.milfordridersmc.com/yz931...y06_10_fmx.mov

David Jimerson · January 22nd, 2007, 12:19 PM

Try 30p. It's 29.97 fps but the field order is progressive.

Jarrod Whaley · January 22nd, 2007, 10:35 PM

I agree with David that 30p would work out a lot better for this kind of footage than 24p. But keep in mind that if you deinterlace your footage to 30p, you're throwing out a huge amount of resolution, which is something you want to do only as a last resort--particularly with SD footage. If you want a progressive look, it's best by far to shoot the footage that way from the beginning. I'd really recommend staying with 60i on this project and looking into shooting progressive in the future (I'm assuming based on your comments that you didn't shoot this stuff, so maybe that's out of your hands).

Another thing on the production end: a relatively fast shutter speed on the high-motion shots might be worth looking into as well--but that's kind of a subjective thing and only my opinion, so take that for what it's worth.

I'm still not entirely convinced that the "video-ish" things you're seeing are motion-related, though. I personally think this footage looks like video primarily because in a lot of spots, there's not a lot of contrast between the blacks and the whites. I think some color/contrast correction might go a long way toward improving the overall look. Try crushing the blacks a little bit with Vegas' Levels "effect," and then play around with the color corrector a little.

I may be way off here, and maybe these aren't the kinds of things you're finding unsatisfactory... but that's just what I'd probably do with this stuff.

January 16th, 2007, 04:13 PM	#1
Robb Swiatek Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: O-Town, CT Posts: 52	Best Overall Settings for DVD Playback Basically here's my question/problem. I have to edit an action sports documentary (motocross) that was shot entirely on DV in your normal 60i format. Now obviously, no one in their right mind would put out the corresponding DVD in 60i as it looks unprofessional and well, video-like. They would render the footage to 24p and have the final output of the DVD be 24p just like any film production. Now my question is what the easiest way I should go about doing this with Vegas 5.0 (I also have After Effects if that allows things to be done easier). I've been reading up on all the info I can find and have been experimenting with everything I can trying to get it just right when viewed on DVD but to no avail. The 24 frames per second are apparent but the quality is terrible. I must be doing something wrong.

January 16th, 2007, 06:35 PM	#2
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Man, if you've got a sports show, especially something as kinetic as a motocross, I'm going to guess that between the camera motion while shooting and the movement of the bikes, you're not going to be able to make a good 24p conversion. If you're shooting 60i with the intention of converting to 24p, you need to be VERY careful about how you handle the camera. You have to handle it like you would a 24p camera, with SLOW zooms, SLOW pans, and other general camera management which isn't necessary with 60i, which records 2.5x the temporal information (and at 1/60 shutter, is recording 100% of the time). It's almost a foregone conclusion that whoever shot the motocross didn't follow those rules, because they almost certainly didn't have a 24p output in mind, and it's also very difficult to do at a live event, especially a sports event. So, if it's not shot for 24p conversion, chances are, the results are not going to be what you want -- as you've already noticed. You most likely didn't do anything wrong when converting -- it's overwhelmingly likely that the footage just isn't suitable for 24p conversion. Also keep in mind that when you're converting from 60i to 24p, you're losing vertical resolution. Not to mention that the deinterlace method matters -- if you're using the "Blend Fields" option (in the project properties) and there's a lot of motion, you're going to get horrible ghosting around anything moving. Always use "Interpolate Fields" for motion footage. (Not that that setting alone is going to make for a good conversion in this case.) But sports is better shot at 60i, anyway. It doesn't look "unprofessional"; it looks like . . . sports. Professional sports you see on TV could be shot at 24p, but they never are, and that's because every frame rate has its uses. 60i is appropriate for sports. So, render for a standard NTSC DVD. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

January 17th, 2007, 07:42 AM	#6
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	You could try for 30p -- outputting as 29.97 progressive. Make sure that your deinterlace method is "Interpolate Fields." __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

January 20th, 2007, 10:17 PM	#8
Jarrod Whaley Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: chattanooga, tn Posts: 721	If it's too sharp, try adding a tiny amount of gaussian blur. Desaturating the colors might help a little bit, too. That said, I doubt a surplus of sharpness is the only thing you have a problem with--though it's hard to say, because we can't see the footage and because most of us probably don't know exactly what it is about the image that you have a problem with. There are any number of things that could be making the footage look "video-y" or home-movie-ish. Many things which might be contributing to the problem are likely to be the kinds of things that you can't entirely fix in post (cheap camera, operator error, etc.). But if there's something you don't like, it's always possible to do something that will make things look at least a little better. Be very, very, very specific about what it is that you don't like, and maybe we'll be able to help you. You might also want to post some footage for us too. Can't hurt. __________________ -->jarrod whaley. www.oakstreetfilms.com

January 22nd, 2007, 12:19 PM	#10
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Try 30p. It's 29.97 fps but the field order is progressive. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

January 16th, 2007, 11:29 PM	#3
Robb Swiatek Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: O-Town, CT Posts: 52	Thanks for the quick response, David. But here's the thing, with every mx documentary out there, not one of them have that video-like look to them. And I know for a fact there's been footage included shot in 60i as well has film for a bunch of them. And I've also been trying to base some ideas off of an ESPN Timeless piece on James Stewart that was on TV a couple of years ago. http://www.milfordridersmc.com/yz931...s/Timeless.wmv (quality is crappy but you can still see that it's definitely not 60i) So would you suggest anything else other than just editing/rendering in regular 60i format? Or rather is there anything I can try to experiment with to get what I'm looking for?

January 17th, 2007, 07:34 AM	#4
Jim Montgomery Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vero Beach Posts: 392	Robb First thing, I am not sure what the video look is. Is it that you lack a depth of field, or color is not great, or the picture is to sharp. All of these will require a different approach. If its an interlacing issue then there is a plug in on videocopilot.net that could be used in after affects to get the look you want.

January 17th, 2007, 07:37 AM	#5
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	LOL...I've yet to see a DV videocam operator with 1/3 inch chips complain he's not got enuff DOF.

January 19th, 2007, 12:23 PM	#7
Robb Swiatek Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: O-Town, CT Posts: 52	I guess my biggest concern at this point is that the picture is too sharp. It just has that home video look to me when rendered in the normal NTSC DV template/settings.

January 21st, 2007, 01:07 AM	#9
Robb Swiatek Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: O-Town, CT Posts: 52	Well here's a little edited piece I threw together just to show as a sample of the "video-ish" look I'm not too keen on. Anything short of making it look like decent quality 24p or any other suggestions I am open to and am willing to try so please don't hesitate to speak your mind. AVI format (132mb) http://www.milfordridersmc.com/yz931...y06_10_fmx.avi MPEG2 format (26.7mb) http://www.milfordridersmc.com/yz931...y06_10_fmx.mpg MOV format (13mb) http://www.milfordridersmc.com/yz931...y06_10_fmx.mov

January 22nd, 2007, 10:35 PM	#11
Jarrod Whaley Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: chattanooga, tn Posts: 721	I agree with David that 30p would work out a lot better for this kind of footage than 24p. But keep in mind that if you deinterlace your footage to 30p, you're throwing out a huge amount of resolution, which is something you want to do only as a last resort--particularly with SD footage. If you want a progressive look, it's best by far to shoot the footage that way from the beginning. I'd really recommend staying with 60i on this project and looking into shooting progressive in the future (I'm assuming based on your comments that you didn't shoot this stuff, so maybe that's out of your hands). Another thing on the production end: a relatively fast shutter speed on the high-motion shots might be worth looking into as well--but that's kind of a subjective thing and only my opinion, so take that for what it's worth. I'm still not entirely convinced that the "video-ish" things you're seeing are motion-related, though. I personally think this footage looks like video primarily because in a lot of spots, there's not a lot of contrast between the blacks and the whites. I think some color/contrast correction might go a long way toward improving the overall look. Try crushing the blacks a little bit with Vegas' Levels "effect," and then play around with the color corrector a little. I may be way off here, and maybe these aren't the kinds of things you're finding unsatisfactory... but that's just what I'd probably do with this stuff. __________________ -->jarrod whaley. www.oakstreetfilms.com