From HDV to DVD

Tyson Persall · October 21st, 2006, 09:02 AM

Making a commercial:
I am trying to convert an project shot in HDV - then converted to uncompresed edited & composited in After effects- then renderd out to a final 30 second uncompressed Microsoft .avi in 1920x1080. It looks great on an attached HDTV via HDMI. However my path to DVD seems to be not so great looking. I am converting the project to DV - then to MPEG-2 via Adobe Encore. -The SD DVD looks like it was shot on any consumer Mini DV camcorder. Seems to me there should be a way for me to make better transfer of this material to DVD straight from the uncompressed 1920x1080 avi file.
What do i need?

Michael Y Wong · October 26th, 2006, 01:00 AM

Hi Tyson,

I am in the same (relatively sinking LOL) boat as you.

I am shooting in HDV, delivering in computer format (currently using WMVHD 720p), and trying to also deliver a good high quality anamorphic widescreen dvd.

For me, letterbox DVDS are NOT an option.

I have read thru these forums tons over and over and it seems that nobody has truly posted a way to get a very HQ DVD from HDV.

Currently I use a pp2.0 workflow and am used to using encore in creating my DVDs. I find that PP2.0 HDV->'DV AVI' looks 'ok' @ best then looks even worse when undergoing the mpeg2 conversion in encore back to DVD.

To get the best looking DVDs from downconverting HDV I've read that ur best bet is to you use the software conversion via Sony Vegas/DVD Archetect. This process shoud yeidl a DVD with higher quality then if you had outputted your camera via SD DV AVI mode. For me this is annoying, since I've never used Vegas, and dont wish to purchase even more software. Like many others in our situation we would like to avoid this.

Some one on the boards also suggested completing your projects in HDV, convert back to M2T and transfer back to your hdv cam/deck. Then using your cam/deck to do the hardware downconvert transfer your footage back to the computer via and your SD AVI output. Dump these files to your DVD & you should get decent quality DVD.

For me, this is likely the route that I am goign to take as i have been experiementing with workflow involving cineform/tmpgenc and am stil unable to get good results in producign a HQ anamorphic widescreen dvd wihtout having to purchase Vegas. Personally this has been quite a PITA.

Hopefully HDV will have matured enough so that image quality benefits of downconverting to DVD from HDV will be fully exploited by the next generation of software.

Hope this helps!

Michael

If anyone else can help on this matter with detailed instructions please do! I for one would greatly appreciate it.

Jason Murphy · October 27th, 2006, 09:56 AM

I have been rendering out a HD Cineform or Uncompressed file, and then using VirtualDub (free) to resize the file and frameserve it to Tmpgenc to convert to a widescreen Mpeg2.

Results are pretty darned good in my opinion.

Ben Winter · October 28th, 2006, 12:10 AM

This might be helpful:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=70792

Werner Wesp · November 3rd, 2006, 04:49 AM

I shoot with a JVC HD100 camcorder in 720p, convert to cineform for editing. The final montage is saved in Cineform. To get the perfect widescreen DVD, I render the cineform montage to mpg2 or straight from the timeline to mpeg2 (If I still have the project). Definately no DV25 intermediate step.

The exact characteristics of the MPEG2 you made are of utmost importance: Since it is progressive, I make sure I make a progressive SD MPEG2 file (progressive SD is of course a lot scharper then interlaced HD - if your source allows it of course), also, keep the bitrate high and constant (8.000 Mbps) and of course 16/9 aspect ratio.

In doing that, I manage to make very crisp SD DVD's. of course, the HD has gone from the video, but is is SD like no one with any SD camcorder can provide.... (well, that's what it looks like)

David J. Payne · September 20th, 2007, 04:08 AM

i have read a lot about this "frameserve to TMPGEnc" process.. I have used TMPGEnc before but do not know anything about frameserve/frameserving.

is it a piece of software or a process? I realise it eventually allows crossing from one program to another without losing any quality or creating an intermediate file.. but could soembody tell me how i actually do it from pp2.0 to tmpgenc???

thanks

David Moody · September 21st, 2007, 04:57 PM

I have been getting very good results with Cineform as well. I edit in Cineform and then resize and output with Cineform in progressive SD and then import that file to Encore.

Jack Kelly · September 26th, 2007, 04:26 AM

Hi folks,

I'd just like to jump in here with a few points:

1) Just a quick word of warning: Authoring DVDs at 8Mbps is risky if you're distributing to unknown DVD players. Apparently, some older DVD players will choke with such high-bit-rate video. I usually use 6.5Mbps as the max bitrate and use MPEG audio at 256kbps (MPEG audio is part of the spec for PAL DVDs but it isn't for NTSC DVDs). (Also, I'm pretty sure that 2-pass VBR is higher quality than CBR).

2) In general, you want to use the least possible number of compression steps in your workflow. Re-compressing your footage is something you want to do as few times as possible. In other words, it's not ideal to render out to DV25 as an intermediate. Instead, why not render as MPEG2-DVD straight from PPro using Adobe Media Encoder? Encore will accept these MPEG2 files from PPro directly and wont have to re-compress them. When working with HD projects, I edit as HD and then encode as MPEG-2 directly from the timeline using Adobe Media Encoder - the results are usually pretty nice. I'm fairly sure that Adobe Media Encoder does the scaling in an elegant fashion.

Thanks,
Jack

Michael Y Wong · September 26th, 2007, 08:48 AM

Ridiculously easy way to getting good dvd footage from hdv:

1) edit hdv export back to hdv 60i (slide the quality settting to highest)

2) import hdv file into canopus procoder, and export as dvd mastering quality (~6-7 mbs), make sure u select 16x9 aspect ratio.

3) your dvd file is ready to import into any dvd authoring software of choice

you will be creating an very pristine looking INTERLACED dvd, which may be of problem to some ppl if their tvs or dvd players have a crappy de-interlacer but in todays day and age that really shouldnt be a problem.

you can deinterlace it in procoder no problem but i havent bothered since the results are fantastic as is.

Kevin Shaw · September 26th, 2007, 09:40 AM

Ditto here for using Procoder to make DVD files, in my case using the 'Procoder Express' included with Edius. I also see a major difference in playback quality on my latest 1080p HDTV between using a standard DVD player with an S-video connection versus an upscaling DVD player via HDMI. I've been skeptical of upsampling players in the past, but the difference on my new display makes widescreen SD discs from HDV source look excellent.

Alex Humphrey · November 6th, 2007, 01:05 AM

I just came up with some info. For those of us trying to make good SD DVD's from HDV formats but not getting what I wanted out of it i read somewhere, and verified that:

1. NTSC DVD is only 59.97 interlaced fields per second... only...
2. If you have a 24p source, encode at 23.97 the DVD player stores 2 fields at once and sends them both together in a progressive manner to your TV/HDTV.

Since I'm running a JVC HD110, I shot some 24p.. captured in Final Cut Pro Studio HD at 24fps 720p. exported via compressor at 23.97 (24p) generic settings, DVD: Best quality 90 minutes 16:9, 23.97 frame rate.. and I think I had Frame Controls Best on everything... final version played on DVD out to Samsung HD LCD, and Pioneer 42" Plasma and a friend's Akai 42" plasma. All looked like a store bought DVD. Same settings etc from a 30p 29.97 source got the interlacing images and artifacts....good looking, but not at all as good as the 24p source. so I'm fairly convinced that if you plan on SD DVD to shoot 24p ONLY.

sooo.... I'm guessing that means that...

3. 30P is for HD only. HD broadcast and HD-DVD/Blu-Ray.
4. 24p is good for A) Film Out, B) SD-DVD progressive scan C) 24p has been standard for sources for broadcasting NTSC so is likely acceptable source for HD broadcasters, however I have not verified this, but since I see 24p film movies all the time on DirectHD, i'm sure 24p source is just as fine in the HD broadcasting world as it is in the SD-NTSC broadcasting world.

So if anyone was like me that couldn't get good progressive non-interlaced DVD's from your HD/HDV source material and wanted store bought DVD quality, try the 24p source.

October 21st, 2006, 09:02 AM	#1
Tyson Persall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: North Hollywood, Atlanta Posts: 437	From HDV to DVD - what is the best method. Making a commercial: I am trying to convert an project shot in HDV - then converted to uncompresed edited & composited in After effects- then renderd out to a final 30 second uncompressed Microsoft .avi in 1920x1080. It looks great on an attached HDTV via HDMI. However my path to DVD seems to be not so great looking. I am converting the project to DV - then to MPEG-2 via Adobe Encore. -The SD DVD looks like it was shot on any consumer Mini DV camcorder. Seems to me there should be a way for me to make better transfer of this material to DVD straight from the uncompressed 1920x1080 avi file. What do i need? __________________ Tyson X

October 26th, 2006, 01:00 AM	#2
Michael Y Wong Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada! Posts: 353	Hi Tyson, I am in the same (relatively sinking LOL) boat as you. I am shooting in HDV, delivering in computer format (currently using WMVHD 720p), and trying to also deliver a good high quality anamorphic widescreen dvd. For me, letterbox DVDS are NOT an option. I have read thru these forums tons over and over and it seems that nobody has truly posted a way to get a very HQ DVD from HDV. Currently I use a pp2.0 workflow and am used to using encore in creating my DVDs. I find that PP2.0 HDV->'DV AVI' looks 'ok' @ best then looks even worse when undergoing the mpeg2 conversion in encore back to DVD. To get the best looking DVDs from downconverting HDV I've read that ur best bet is to you use the software conversion via Sony Vegas/DVD Archetect. This process shoud yeidl a DVD with higher quality then if you had outputted your camera via SD DV AVI mode. For me this is annoying, since I've never used Vegas, and dont wish to purchase even more software. Like many others in our situation we would like to avoid this. Some one on the boards also suggested completing your projects in HDV, convert back to M2T and transfer back to your hdv cam/deck. Then using your cam/deck to do the hardware downconvert transfer your footage back to the computer via and your SD AVI output. Dump these files to your DVD & you should get decent quality DVD. For me, this is likely the route that I am goign to take as i have been experiementing with workflow involving cineform/tmpgenc and am stil unable to get good results in producign a HQ anamorphic widescreen dvd wihtout having to purchase Vegas. Personally this has been quite a PITA. Hopefully HDV will have matured enough so that image quality benefits of downconverting to DVD from HDV will be fully exploited by the next generation of software. Hope this helps! Michael If anyone else can help on this matter with detailed instructions please do! I for one would greatly appreciate it. __________________ dreaming hobbyist + storyteller www.michaelywong.com

October 28th, 2006, 12:10 AM	#4
Ben Winter Trustee Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 1,675 Images: 1	This might be helpful: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=70792 __________________ BenWinter.com

September 26th, 2007, 04:26 AM	#8
Jack Kelly Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 243	Hi folks, I'd just like to jump in here with a few points: 1) Just a quick word of warning: Authoring DVDs at 8Mbps is risky if you're distributing to unknown DVD players. Apparently, some older DVD players will choke with such high-bit-rate video. I usually use 6.5Mbps as the max bitrate and use MPEG audio at 256kbps (MPEG audio is part of the spec for PAL DVDs but it isn't for NTSC DVDs). (Also, I'm pretty sure that 2-pass VBR is higher quality than CBR). 2) In general, you want to use the least possible number of compression steps in your workflow. Re-compressing your footage is something you want to do as few times as possible. In other words, it's not ideal to render out to DV25 as an intermediate. Instead, why not render as MPEG2-DVD straight from PPro using Adobe Media Encoder? Encore will accept these MPEG2 files from PPro directly and wont have to re-compress them. When working with HD projects, I edit as HD and then encode as MPEG-2 directly from the timeline using Adobe Media Encoder - the results are usually pretty nice. I'm fairly sure that Adobe Media Encoder does the scaling in an elegant fashion. Thanks, Jack __________________ Jack Kelly's filmmaking website AfterCarbon.org

September 26th, 2007, 08:48 AM	#9
Michael Y Wong Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada! Posts: 353	Ridiculously easy way to getting good dvd footage from hdv: 1) edit hdv export back to hdv 60i (slide the quality settting to highest) 2) import hdv file into canopus procoder, and export as dvd mastering quality (~6-7 mbs), make sure u select 16x9 aspect ratio. 3) your dvd file is ready to import into any dvd authoring software of choice you will be creating an very pristine looking INTERLACED dvd, which may be of problem to some ppl if their tvs or dvd players have a crappy de-interlacer but in todays day and age that really shouldnt be a problem. you can deinterlace it in procoder no problem but i havent bothered since the results are fantastic as is. __________________ dreaming hobbyist + storyteller www.michaelywong.com

October 27th, 2006, 09:56 AM	#3
Jason Murphy Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 54	I have been rendering out a HD Cineform or Uncompressed file, and then using VirtualDub (free) to resize the file and frameserve it to Tmpgenc to convert to a widescreen Mpeg2. Results are pretty darned good in my opinion.

November 3rd, 2006, 04:49 AM	#5
Werner Wesp Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 497	I shoot with a JVC HD100 camcorder in 720p, convert to cineform for editing. The final montage is saved in Cineform. To get the perfect widescreen DVD, I render the cineform montage to mpg2 or straight from the timeline to mpeg2 (If I still have the project). Definately no DV25 intermediate step. The exact characteristics of the MPEG2 you made are of utmost importance: Since it is progressive, I make sure I make a progressive SD MPEG2 file (progressive SD is of course a lot scharper then interlaced HD - if your source allows it of course), also, keep the bitrate high and constant (8.000 Mbps) and of course 16/9 aspect ratio. In doing that, I manage to make very crisp SD DVD's. of course, the HD has gone from the video, but is is SD like no one with any SD camcorder can provide.... (well, that's what it looks like)

September 20th, 2007, 04:08 AM	#6
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	i have read a lot about this "frameserve to TMPGEnc" process.. I have used TMPGEnc before but do not know anything about frameserve/frameserving. is it a piece of software or a process? I realise it eventually allows crossing from one program to another without losing any quality or creating an intermediate file.. but could soembody tell me how i actually do it from pp2.0 to tmpgenc??? thanks

September 21st, 2007, 04:57 PM	#7
David Moody Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 86	I have been getting very good results with Cineform as well. I edit in Cineform and then resize and output with Cineform in progressive SD and then import that file to Encore.

September 26th, 2007, 09:40 AM	#10
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Ditto here for using Procoder to make DVD files, in my case using the 'Procoder Express' included with Edius. I also see a major difference in playback quality on my latest 1080p HDTV between using a standard DVD player with an S-video connection versus an upscaling DVD player via HDMI. I've been skeptical of upsampling players in the past, but the difference on my new display makes widescreen SD discs from HDV source look excellent.

November 6th, 2007, 01:05 AM	#11
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	What I think I learned... I just came up with some info. For those of us trying to make good SD DVD's from HDV formats but not getting what I wanted out of it i read somewhere, and verified that: 1. NTSC DVD is only 59.97 interlaced fields per second... only... 2. If you have a 24p source, encode at 23.97 the DVD player stores 2 fields at once and sends them both together in a progressive manner to your TV/HDTV. Since I'm running a JVC HD110, I shot some 24p.. captured in Final Cut Pro Studio HD at 24fps 720p. exported via compressor at 23.97 (24p) generic settings, DVD: Best quality 90 minutes 16:9, 23.97 frame rate.. and I think I had Frame Controls Best on everything... final version played on DVD out to Samsung HD LCD, and Pioneer 42" Plasma and a friend's Akai 42" plasma. All looked like a store bought DVD. Same settings etc from a 30p 29.97 source got the interlacing images and artifacts....good looking, but not at all as good as the 24p source. so I'm fairly convinced that if you plan on SD DVD to shoot 24p ONLY. sooo.... I'm guessing that means that... 3. 30P is for HD only. HD broadcast and HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. 4. 24p is good for A) Film Out, B) SD-DVD progressive scan C) 24p has been standard for sources for broadcasting NTSC so is likely acceptable source for HD broadcasters, however I have not verified this, but since I see 24p film movies all the time on DirectHD, i'm sure 24p source is just as fine in the HD broadcasting world as it is in the SD-NTSC broadcasting world. So if anyone was like me that couldn't get good progressive non-interlaced DVD's from your HD/HDV source material and wanted store bought DVD quality, try the 24p source.